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	<title>Comments on: Medicare SAVES money</title>
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		<title>By: TB</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/06/13/medicare-saves-money/#comment-2152</link>
		<dc:creator>TB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jun 2011 16:19:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=1664#comment-2152</guid>
		<description>The top ten percent of income earners already pay 55 percent of all Federal taxes, including payroll.  If you just count income tax, it&#039;s 73 percent.  Just how &quot;progressive&quot; do taxes have to be?

I&#039;ll tell you what I&#039;m trying to tell ER:  Look behind us.  See that off in the distance?  That&#039;s the &quot;middle ground.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The top ten percent of income earners already pay 55 percent of all Federal taxes, including payroll.  If you just count income tax, it&#8217;s 73 percent.  Just how &#8220;progressive&#8221; do taxes have to be?</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll tell you what I&#8217;m trying to tell ER:  Look behind us.  See that off in the distance?  That&#8217;s the &#8220;middle ground.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: VelociraptorBlade</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/06/13/medicare-saves-money/#comment-2134</link>
		<dc:creator>VelociraptorBlade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jun 2011 07:05:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=1664#comment-2134</guid>
		<description>We&#039;re not giving people discounts, we&#039;re RAISING TAXES.  And we probably wouldn&#039;t have to do that if A) everyone stopped dodging them, and B)there was a progressive tax rate in place.  If the government starts spending more wisely, then we might not have to charge that much either.

I say people should just pay their taxes instead of dodging them.  Who knows, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEm_dkqqYQw&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;they might start feeling normal again by July!&lt;/a&gt; :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We&#8217;re not giving people discounts, we&#8217;re RAISING TAXES.  And we probably wouldn&#8217;t have to do that if A) everyone stopped dodging them, and B)there was a progressive tax rate in place.  If the government starts spending more wisely, then we might not have to charge that much either.</p>
<p>I say people should just pay their taxes instead of dodging them.  Who knows, <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEm_dkqqYQw" rel="nofollow">they might start feeling normal again by July!</a> <img src='https://habitablezone.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/06/13/medicare-saves-money/#comment-2117</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jun 2011 23:59:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=1664#comment-2117</guid>
		<description>Life insurance was provided at work for a substantial discount, now that I&#039;m not working, I pay full price, and it is very expensive, it exceeds my property taxes.  I am covered, not my wife, because I can survive without her, she will starve without me. Without my SS, she cannot make ends meet, without hers, I can squeak by. 

Fortunately, if either of us dies, it will no longer be necessary for the survivor to pay premiums.

And it is cheap compared to medical.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Life insurance was provided at work for a substantial discount, now that I&#8217;m not working, I pay full price, and it is very expensive, it exceeds my property taxes.  I am covered, not my wife, because I can survive without her, she will starve without me. Without my SS, she cannot make ends meet, without hers, I can squeak by. </p>
<p>Fortunately, if either of us dies, it will no longer be necessary for the survivor to pay premiums.</p>
<p>And it is cheap compared to medical.</p>
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		<title>By: TB</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/06/13/medicare-saves-money/#comment-2115</link>
		<dc:creator>TB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jun 2011 23:25:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=1664#comment-2115</guid>
		<description>How did you buy life insurance?  Did you start shopping at 60?  Why or why not?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How did you buy life insurance?  Did you start shopping at 60?  Why or why not?</p>
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		<title>By: TB</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/06/13/medicare-saves-money/#comment-2113</link>
		<dc:creator>TB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jun 2011 23:15:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=1664#comment-2113</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s no such thing as &quot;paying for each other&#039;s stuff.&quot;

There are the people who are made to pay for other people&#039;s stuff, and the people who don&#039;t pay for their own stuff.  There are a lot more of the latter than the former, and in a democracy, you can see for yourself where that leads.

At some level, an economy can withstand a certain amount of wealth distribution, in the same way that a restaurant can afford to give seniors a discount or a railroad can let kids ride for free.  But when the government tells the restaurant that &lt;em&gt;everyone&lt;/em&gt; has to get the senior discount, the model breaks down.  It&#039;s breaking down now.  The payers are far outnumbered by the payees, and the payees are demanding more every year.  Add free health care to that and what happens?

Seriously, do you honestly think the nearly 50 percent of Americans who pay no income tax now are going to stand for suddenly paying a huge health care tax?  Sure, they&#039;re paying for insurance where they work, but that&#039;s transparent to them, like the other half of their Social Security.  The actual result is going to be a huge added tax burden on the minority that already carries almost all the load.

And yes, if your entire nation has the population of Wisconsin and is half the size of Maine, it does make national government easier.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s no such thing as &#8220;paying for each other&#8217;s stuff.&#8221;</p>
<p>There are the people who are made to pay for other people&#8217;s stuff, and the people who don&#8217;t pay for their own stuff.  There are a lot more of the latter than the former, and in a democracy, you can see for yourself where that leads.</p>
<p>At some level, an economy can withstand a certain amount of wealth distribution, in the same way that a restaurant can afford to give seniors a discount or a railroad can let kids ride for free.  But when the government tells the restaurant that <em>everyone</em> has to get the senior discount, the model breaks down.  It&#8217;s breaking down now.  The payers are far outnumbered by the payees, and the payees are demanding more every year.  Add free health care to that and what happens?</p>
<p>Seriously, do you honestly think the nearly 50 percent of Americans who pay no income tax now are going to stand for suddenly paying a huge health care tax?  Sure, they&#8217;re paying for insurance where they work, but that&#8217;s transparent to them, like the other half of their Social Security.  The actual result is going to be a huge added tax burden on the minority that already carries almost all the load.</p>
<p>And yes, if your entire nation has the population of Wisconsin and is half the size of Maine, it does make national government easier.</p>
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		<title>By: VelociraptorBlade</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/06/13/medicare-saves-money/#comment-2097</link>
		<dc:creator>VelociraptorBlade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jun 2011 20:44:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=1664#comment-2097</guid>
		<description>Ah, TB.  The ever-present Boogeyman/Eldritch Sea Monster of Current Events and Flame.

Would it be so WRONG for people to pay for each other&#039;s healthcare?  They do it in many countries, and they&#039;re much healthier for it.  Why can&#039;t people be kind enough to support their neighbors, instead of being greedy little *insert plural expletive* and leaving them to rotin the gutter?  Think about it.  Denmark does this, and while they have a high tax rate (Oh no, taxes!), they are doing great fiscally, and in terms of population happiness (#1 one on the planet).  And please, don&#039;t give me that &quot;they&#039;re smaller, so it wouldn&#039;t work on the grand scale that the US operates&quot; crap.  The US was been modeled off of many other countries (often the size of Pennsylvania) when it was formed, and I don&#039;t see why we can&#039;t continue to take a cue from mother countries in our modern law-making process.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, TB.  The ever-present Boogeyman/Eldritch Sea Monster of Current Events and Flame.</p>
<p>Would it be so WRONG for people to pay for each other&#8217;s healthcare?  They do it in many countries, and they&#8217;re much healthier for it.  Why can&#8217;t people be kind enough to support their neighbors, instead of being greedy little *insert plural expletive* and leaving them to rotin the gutter?  Think about it.  Denmark does this, and while they have a high tax rate (Oh no, taxes!), they are doing great fiscally, and in terms of population happiness (#1 one on the planet).  And please, don&#8217;t give me that &#8220;they&#8217;re smaller, so it wouldn&#8217;t work on the grand scale that the US operates&#8221; crap.  The US was been modeled off of many other countries (often the size of Pennsylvania) when it was formed, and I don&#8217;t see why we can&#8217;t continue to take a cue from mother countries in our modern law-making process.</p>
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		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/06/13/medicare-saves-money/#comment-2094</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jun 2011 20:13:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=1664#comment-2094</guid>
		<description>My wife and I are both in our sixties, with pre-existing medical conditions.  Even though we are fairly well-off financially, we cannot afford health insurance through a private company. Without government assistance, we would have to pay whatever the industry rate decided by the market would be.

That sounds like a monopoly to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My wife and I are both in our sixties, with pre-existing medical conditions.  Even though we are fairly well-off financially, we cannot afford health insurance through a private company. Without government assistance, we would have to pay whatever the industry rate decided by the market would be.</p>
<p>That sounds like a monopoly to me.</p>
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		<title>By: TB</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/06/13/medicare-saves-money/#comment-2083</link>
		<dc:creator>TB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jun 2011 19:04:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=1664#comment-2083</guid>
		<description>See?  Your first sentence blows up right off the bat.  There is no &quot;private health monopoly.&quot;  There is no single Rockefeller-owned &quot;insurance trust.&quot;  It&#039;s the other side advocating a single monopoly solution.  Or monopsony to be precise.  Look around at industries where the government is the only paying customer.  Are they shining lights of efficiency, incorruptibility, and low cost?  I speak as someone who has an intimate knowledge of government space programs.  Maybe someone else here has worked in the defense industry.

As for the rest, look around again.  We&#039;re &lt;em&gt;in&lt;/em&gt; the so-called &quot;compromise.&quot;  Nearly half of all our health care spending is from the government right now.  In 2009 that number was 44 percent (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cms.gov/NationalHealthExpendData/downloads/tables.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Table 5&lt;/a&gt;).  In 2003 (the furthest back on the table) it was 39 percent.  

How&#039;s that working?  Back when the government was spending much less of our bill, were health care costs higher or lower?

And do you really consider a free and competitive market, with many consumer choices, to be some kind of polar extreme on the opposite side of state control of an entire industry?  I mean, &lt;em&gt;really?&lt;/em&gt;

&quot;What, you want to wear &lt;em&gt;no chains at all?&lt;/em&gt;  Where is your spirit of compromise?&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See?  Your first sentence blows up right off the bat.  There is no &#8220;private health monopoly.&#8221;  There is no single Rockefeller-owned &#8220;insurance trust.&#8221;  It&#8217;s the other side advocating a single monopoly solution.  Or monopsony to be precise.  Look around at industries where the government is the only paying customer.  Are they shining lights of efficiency, incorruptibility, and low cost?  I speak as someone who has an intimate knowledge of government space programs.  Maybe someone else here has worked in the defense industry.</p>
<p>As for the rest, look around again.  We&#8217;re <em>in</em> the so-called &#8220;compromise.&#8221;  Nearly half of all our health care spending is from the government right now.  In 2009 that number was 44 percent (<a href="http://www.cms.gov/NationalHealthExpendData/downloads/tables.pdf" rel="nofollow">Table 5</a>).  In 2003 (the furthest back on the table) it was 39 percent.  </p>
<p>How&#8217;s that working?  Back when the government was spending much less of our bill, were health care costs higher or lower?</p>
<p>And do you really consider a free and competitive market, with many consumer choices, to be some kind of polar extreme on the opposite side of state control of an entire industry?  I mean, <em>really?</em></p>
<p>&#8220;What, you want to wear <em>no chains at all?</em>  Where is your spirit of compromise?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/06/13/medicare-saves-money/#comment-2080</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jun 2011 18:42:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=1664#comment-2080</guid>
		<description>The apologists for laissez faire economics WANT you to believe there is no alternative to their system of private monopoly over everything except complete government control of everything.  Anything in between, or any combination of the two, even if heavily weighted towards their side, is rejected outright so that only their desires and their program are options.  

This is why I am certain  contemporary conservatism is dead wrong.  It&#039;s not that I&#039;m opposed in principle to their policies.  On the contrary, many have merit, and many liberal positions have severe contradictions and inconsistencies.

But the modern conservative will not meet you half way, does not believe in compromise, its his way or the highway. And he will stop at nothing until he gets it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The apologists for laissez faire economics WANT you to believe there is no alternative to their system of private monopoly over everything except complete government control of everything.  Anything in between, or any combination of the two, even if heavily weighted towards their side, is rejected outright so that only their desires and their program are options.  </p>
<p>This is why I am certain  contemporary conservatism is dead wrong.  It&#8217;s not that I&#8217;m opposed in principle to their policies.  On the contrary, many have merit, and many liberal positions have severe contradictions and inconsistencies.</p>
<p>But the modern conservative will not meet you half way, does not believe in compromise, its his way or the highway. And he will stop at nothing until he gets it.</p>
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		<title>By: Lee</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/06/13/medicare-saves-money/#comment-2077</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jun 2011 18:09:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=1664#comment-2077</guid>
		<description>Of course it should be for profit.  Where do you think all of those new medicines and gadget&#039;s come from?  The people involved have to be paid.  That&#039;s like saying everyone needs food, housing, clothing, and transportation, so none of those industries should be for profit either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course it should be for profit.  Where do you think all of those new medicines and gadget&#8217;s come from?  The people involved have to be paid.  That&#8217;s like saying everyone needs food, housing, clothing, and transportation, so none of those industries should be for profit either.</p>
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