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	<title>Comments on: Collapse of complex societies</title>
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	<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/06/29/collapse-of-complex-societies-2/</link>
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		<title>By: mcfly</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/06/29/collapse-of-complex-societies-2/#comment-3064</link>
		<dc:creator>mcfly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jun 2011 18:48:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=2087#comment-3064</guid>
		<description>Wouldn&#039;t surprise me.

I have, at times, spouted some of the most ridiculous crap ever spouted.

No one here actually has to be told to take me with a grain of salt, do they? Didn&#039;t think so...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wouldn&#8217;t surprise me.</p>
<p>I have, at times, spouted some of the most ridiculous crap ever spouted.</p>
<p>No one here actually has to be told to take me with a grain of salt, do they? Didn&#8217;t think so&#8230;</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: mcfly</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/06/29/collapse-of-complex-societies-2/#comment-3063</link>
		<dc:creator>mcfly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jun 2011 18:34:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=2087#comment-3063</guid>
		<description>Well said.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well said.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: TB</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/06/29/collapse-of-complex-societies-2/#comment-3061</link>
		<dc:creator>TB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jun 2011 18:26:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=2087#comment-3061</guid>
		<description>Or until the EPA &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cfact.org/a/1765/EPA-sets-its-sights-on-Pennsylvania-Amish&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;wipes them out.&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Or until the EPA <a href="http://www.cfact.org/a/1765/EPA-sets-its-sights-on-Pennsylvania-Amish" rel="nofollow">wipes them out.</a></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: VelociraptorBlade</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/06/29/collapse-of-complex-societies-2/#comment-3058</link>
		<dc:creator>VelociraptorBlade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jun 2011 18:23:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=2087#comment-3058</guid>
		<description>Rome sort of proves my first point.  When the Roman Empire collapsed (Which was a VERY gradual thing), people didn&#039;t run around rioting in the streets screaming &quot;WE HAVE NO PLOWS&lt; NO FARMS&lt; NO CUSTOMERS!  IT&#039;S ALL BEEN SHUT OFF LIKE A SWITCH!&quot;  No, they realised they were no longer under the rule of the Romans, government changed, tech progressed, and life went on as usual.

Call me crazy, but with all the craze around the Rapture, 2012, Disaster movies, Zombie plagues, and general news reports on how everything&#039;s going to hell, It looks like some people actually WANT the world to end. I can&#039;t be right, though.  That&#039;s a crazy thought, right?  *cricket silence*</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rome sort of proves my first point.  When the Roman Empire collapsed (Which was a VERY gradual thing), people didn&#8217;t run around rioting in the streets screaming &#8220;WE HAVE NO PLOWS< NO FARMS< NO CUSTOMERS!  IT&#8217;S ALL BEEN SHUT OFF LIKE A SWITCH!&#8221;  No, they realised they were no longer under the rule of the Romans, government changed, tech progressed, and life went on as usual.</p>
<p>Call me crazy, but with all the craze around the Rapture, 2012, Disaster movies, Zombie plagues, and general news reports on how everything&#8217;s going to hell, It looks like some people actually WANT the world to end. I can&#8217;t be right, though.  That&#8217;s a crazy thought, right?  *cricket silence*</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/06/29/collapse-of-complex-societies-2/#comment-3056</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jun 2011 18:12:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=2087#comment-3056</guid>
		<description>OK. Can you guess who said this?

***Begin Quote***

The conservatives are fools: They whine about the decay of
   traditional values, yet they enthusiastically support technological
   progress and economic growth. Apparently it never occurs to them that
   you can&#039;t make rapid, drastic changes in the technology and the
   economy of a society with out causing rapid changes in all other
   aspects of the society as well, and that such rapid changes inevitably
   break down traditional values.

   Conservatives and some others advocate more &quot;local autonomy.&quot;
   Local communities once did have autonomy, but such autonomy becomes
   less and less possible as local communities become more enmeshed with
   and dependent on large-scale systems like public utilities, computer
   networks, highway systems, the mass communications media, the modern
   health care system. Also operating against autonomy is the fact that
   technology applied in one location often affects people at other
   locations far away. Thus pesticide or chemical use near a creek may
   contaminate the water supply hundreds of miles downstream, and the
   greenhouse effect affects the whole world.

   Conservatives&#039; efforts to decrease the amount of
   government regulation are of little benefit to the average man. For
   one thing, only a fraction of the regulations can be eliminated
   because most regulations are necessary. For another thing, most of the
   deregulation affects business rather than the average individual, so
   that its main effect is to take power from the government and give it
   to private corporations. What this means for the average man is that
   government interference in his life is replaced by interference from
   big corporations, which may be permitted, for example, to dump more
   chemicals that get into his water supply and give him cancer. The
   conservatives are just taking the average man for a sucker, exploiting
   his resentment of Big Government to promote the power of Big Business.

***End Quote***</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK. Can you guess who said this?</p>
<p>***Begin Quote***</p>
<p>The conservatives are fools: They whine about the decay of<br />
   traditional values, yet they enthusiastically support technological<br />
   progress and economic growth. Apparently it never occurs to them that<br />
   you can&#8217;t make rapid, drastic changes in the technology and the<br />
   economy of a society with out causing rapid changes in all other<br />
   aspects of the society as well, and that such rapid changes inevitably<br />
   break down traditional values.</p>
<p>   Conservatives and some others advocate more &#8220;local autonomy.&#8221;<br />
   Local communities once did have autonomy, but such autonomy becomes<br />
   less and less possible as local communities become more enmeshed with<br />
   and dependent on large-scale systems like public utilities, computer<br />
   networks, highway systems, the mass communications media, the modern<br />
   health care system. Also operating against autonomy is the fact that<br />
   technology applied in one location often affects people at other<br />
   locations far away. Thus pesticide or chemical use near a creek may<br />
   contaminate the water supply hundreds of miles downstream, and the<br />
   greenhouse effect affects the whole world.</p>
<p>   Conservatives&#8217; efforts to decrease the amount of<br />
   government regulation are of little benefit to the average man. For<br />
   one thing, only a fraction of the regulations can be eliminated<br />
   because most regulations are necessary. For another thing, most of the<br />
   deregulation affects business rather than the average individual, so<br />
   that its main effect is to take power from the government and give it<br />
   to private corporations. What this means for the average man is that<br />
   government interference in his life is replaced by interference from<br />
   big corporations, which may be permitted, for example, to dump more<br />
   chemicals that get into his water supply and give him cancer. The<br />
   conservatives are just taking the average man for a sucker, exploiting<br />
   his resentment of Big Government to promote the power of Big Business.</p>
<p>***End Quote***</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/06/29/collapse-of-complex-societies-2/#comment-3055</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jun 2011 18:06:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=2087#comment-3055</guid>
		<description>Only until someone finds oil under their land.  Ask the redskins.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Only until someone finds oil under their land.  Ask the redskins.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jody</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/06/29/collapse-of-complex-societies-2/#comment-3050</link>
		<dc:creator>Jody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jun 2011 17:52:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=2087#comment-3050</guid>
		<description>It was good..I, too listened to the whole lecture...now I will ponder.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It was good..I, too listened to the whole lecture&#8230;now I will ponder.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jody</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/06/29/collapse-of-complex-societies-2/#comment-3049</link>
		<dc:creator>Jody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jun 2011 17:50:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=2087#comment-3049</guid>
		<description>The Amish will have the last laugh.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Amish will have the last laugh.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: TB</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/06/29/collapse-of-complex-societies-2/#comment-3040</link>
		<dc:creator>TB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jun 2011 15:32:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=2087#comment-3040</guid>
		<description>In the first episode of &quot;Connections,&quot; James Burke wanders out from a blacked-out city, searching for something to help him.  In a rural farm, in a barn beneath a pile of junk, he finds an old plow.  &quot;You&#039;re saved,&quot; he says.

Decentralize.  Focus on making things that work when things ten miles away aren&#039;t working.  This applies to technology, politics, economics, and everything else.  We need to come up with a system that has a lot fewer keystones in it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the first episode of &#8220;Connections,&#8221; James Burke wanders out from a blacked-out city, searching for something to help him.  In a rural farm, in a barn beneath a pile of junk, he finds an old plow.  &#8220;You&#8217;re saved,&#8221; he says.</p>
<p>Decentralize.  Focus on making things that work when things ten miles away aren&#8217;t working.  This applies to technology, politics, economics, and everything else.  We need to come up with a system that has a lot fewer keystones in it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: TB</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/06/29/collapse-of-complex-societies-2/#comment-3039</link>
		<dc:creator>TB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jun 2011 15:19:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=2087#comment-3039</guid>
		<description>Actually, while energy is needed in growing amounts, technological progress also allows you to do more with less.  While we still have to deal with increasing population, energy use per capita in advanced nations has been essentially flat for over thirty years.

The question that should be asked right now is &quot;what&#039;s the best way to get a lot more energy as quickly as possible?&quot;  So far, we aren&#039;t getting very good answers.  Come to that, we&#039;re not getting the right answers for &quot;what&#039;s the best way to get a lot more money as quickly as possible&quot; either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, while energy is needed in growing amounts, technological progress also allows you to do more with less.  While we still have to deal with increasing population, energy use per capita in advanced nations has been essentially flat for over thirty years.</p>
<p>The question that should be asked right now is &#8220;what&#8217;s the best way to get a lot more energy as quickly as possible?&#8221;  So far, we aren&#8217;t getting very good answers.  Come to that, we&#8217;re not getting the right answers for &#8220;what&#8217;s the best way to get a lot more money as quickly as possible&#8221; either.</p>
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