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	<title>Comments on: Wind energy?  &#8220;Whoa.&#8221;</title>
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	<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/09/06/wind-energy-whoa/</link>
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		<title>By: TB</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/09/06/wind-energy-whoa/#comment-5493</link>
		<dc:creator>TB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Sep 2011 00:43:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=3501#comment-5493</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s a good way to put it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s a good way to put it.</p>
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		<title>By: podrock</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/09/06/wind-energy-whoa/#comment-5490</link>
		<dc:creator>podrock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Sep 2011 00:11:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=3501#comment-5490</guid>
		<description>Well, yes, of course.  We get better at using long poles and ladders when the low fruit is gone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, yes, of course.  We get better at using long poles and ladders when the low fruit is gone.</p>
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		<title>By: TB</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/09/06/wind-energy-whoa/#comment-5487</link>
		<dc:creator>TB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Sep 2011 20:18:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Note this, though:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;The new estimates are much higher than the last assessment by the Geological Survey in 2002. Those estimates - which suggested the Marcellus contained only about two trillion feet of recoverable gas - were provided before new technology had drastically increased drilling for natural gas in shale formations.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Human ingenuity has already increased the reserve by a factor of 42.  We&#039;ll see where it goes from here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Note this, though:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;The new estimates are much higher than the last assessment by the Geological Survey in 2002. Those estimates &#8211; which suggested the Marcellus contained only about two trillion feet of recoverable gas &#8211; were provided before new technology had drastically increased drilling for natural gas in shale formations.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>Human ingenuity has already increased the reserve by a factor of 42.  We&#8217;ll see where it goes from here.</p>
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		<title>By: podrock</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/09/06/wind-energy-whoa/#comment-5486</link>
		<dc:creator>podrock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Sep 2011 18:35:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=3501#comment-5486</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Less gas than was thought.&lt;/p&gt;

From the NYT &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/25/us/25gas.html?_r=2&amp;ref=science&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Geologists Sharply Cut Estimate of Shale Gas&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;The shale formation has about 84 trillion cubic feet of undiscovered, technically recoverable natural gas, according to the report from the United States Geological Survey. This is drastically lower than the 410 trillion cubic feet that was published earlier this year by the federal Energy Information Administration. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

We&#039;ve seen this inflation and mis-understanding of resource and reserve estimates in the past. The media likes splashy headlines of huge deposits and the public doesn&#039;t understand the difference between an assesment, a resource, and a reserve. 

Still, we have lots of Nat Gas, and that&#039;s going to help, as long as the infrastructure can be expanded to areas that traditionally heat homes with oil.  And that it maintains a price high enough to encourage development but not too high to discourage use.  Our energy needs are moving to exploit the only resources now available, which are typically deep, dirty, or dangerous. Sometimes all three. And always expensive.

An excellent essay on the current status of Nat Gas can be found at the Oil Drum:&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theoildrum.com/node/8310#more&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Natural Gas: The Squeeze at the Bottom of the Resource Triangle&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Less gas than was thought.</p>
<p>From the NYT <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/25/us/25gas.html?_r=2&amp;ref=science" rel="nofollow">Geologists Sharply Cut Estimate of Shale Gas</a></p>
<blockquote><p>The shale formation has about 84 trillion cubic feet of undiscovered, technically recoverable natural gas, according to the report from the United States Geological Survey. This is drastically lower than the 410 trillion cubic feet that was published earlier this year by the federal Energy Information Administration. </p></blockquote>
<p>We&#8217;ve seen this inflation and mis-understanding of resource and reserve estimates in the past. The media likes splashy headlines of huge deposits and the public doesn&#8217;t understand the difference between an assesment, a resource, and a reserve. </p>
<p>Still, we have lots of Nat Gas, and that&#8217;s going to help, as long as the infrastructure can be expanded to areas that traditionally heat homes with oil.  And that it maintains a price high enough to encourage development but not too high to discourage use.  Our energy needs are moving to exploit the only resources now available, which are typically deep, dirty, or dangerous. Sometimes all three. And always expensive.</p>
<p>An excellent essay on the current status of Nat Gas can be found at the Oil Drum:<a href="http://www.theoildrum.com/node/8310#more" rel="nofollow">Natural Gas: The Squeeze at the Bottom of the Resource Triangle</a></p>
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		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/09/06/wind-energy-whoa/#comment-5483</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Sep 2011 16:00:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=3501#comment-5483</guid>
		<description>EDITED:
But TB, I&#039;m an environmentalist...


&lt;img src=&quot;http://sharktank.smchs.org/Glass/hippie.jpg&quot; alt=&quot;hippie environmentalist&quot; /&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>EDITED:<br />
But TB, I&#8217;m an environmentalist&#8230;</p>
<p><img src="http://sharktank.smchs.org/Glass/hippie.jpg" alt="hippie environmentalist" /></p>
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		<title>By: TB</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/09/06/wind-energy-whoa/#comment-5479</link>
		<dc:creator>TB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Sep 2011 15:30:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=3501#comment-5479</guid>
		<description>The future of natural gas is already here.  The vast majority of new power plants being built use it, and there&#039;s a shitload of natural gas in the U.S.  Environmentalists don&#039;t like natural gas any more than they like anything built by technological civilizations.

I think there is also a future in smaller, decentralized nuclear systems (I&#039;m tracking the technology).  There are also futures for solar, wind, and others.  Granted, no alternative energy will fill all our needs, but a megawatt produced by a solar, tidal, geothermal, or wind plant is a megawatt we don&#039;t have to burn hydrocarbons to get.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The future of natural gas is already here.  The vast majority of new power plants being built use it, and there&#8217;s a shitload of natural gas in the U.S.  Environmentalists don&#8217;t like natural gas any more than they like anything built by technological civilizations.</p>
<p>I think there is also a future in smaller, decentralized nuclear systems (I&#8217;m tracking the technology).  There are also futures for solar, wind, and others.  Granted, no alternative energy will fill all our needs, but a megawatt produced by a solar, tidal, geothermal, or wind plant is a megawatt we don&#8217;t have to burn hydrocarbons to get.</p>
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		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/09/06/wind-energy-whoa/#comment-5475</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Sep 2011 15:12:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=3501#comment-5475</guid>
		<description>Wind energy is the Liberal equivalent of Conservative &#039;drill, drill, drill&#039;. Easy to say because we know it will never happen on a scale big enough to prove it won&#039;t work. There isn&#039;t enough energy there to make it worth our while. Like solar, tidal, biofuels, geothermal, hydro, tar sands, oil shale, fusion or any of these other green or advanced technologies; it is too little too late.  They are either relying on a resource that is already tapped out, or will not yield enough energy to make a difference overall in time to do any good.

Natural gas may have a future, but who&#039;s going to pay for the conversion, or the financial inefficiency of maintaining parallel delivery and marketing systems? You know all those commercials on TV are prep for the inevitable call for government subsidies to support a natural gas market.  Every time the energy lobby  pulls out that skinny blonde I reach for my wallet. That&#039;s the drilling they&#039;re really good at.

Barring some technological breakthrough (which I am convinced everyone is working feverishly for in the background, but which probably won&#039;t come in time to help, if ever) there is only a limited handful of options we can rely on.

Conservation is the best bet, but only if enforced by law. Market enforcement will never be enough and will always come too late as long as the Saudis have any oil left to sell and don&#039;t care what happens in the future. Nuclear, and coal, in that order our next best bet.  Everything else is ideological wishful thinking, something-for-nothing wet dreams from both right and left. 

We&#039;ve known this since the 70s, but nuclear looked so good at the time we didn&#039;t worry about it too much;  we never implemented conservation because the business community wouldn&#039;t hear it. We had an economy dependent on extravagant energy consumption, they weren&#039;t about to mess around with that. Conservation is most effective when the need for it seems least pressing. So it never gets done in time to buy us any time or do us any good.

Nuclear didn&#039;t pan out because the business community wasn&#039;t willing to pay for the necessary safety infrastructure, either directly through rate hikes or indirectly through taxation, and the environmentalists refused to compromise on their exaggerated safety concerns. (Yes, TB.  They were exaggerated, not non-existent.) Besides, as long as oil was cheap no one worried about tomorrow.

Coal is plentiful, although the environmental costs of mining it are probably even worse than the pollutants produced by burning it. It will probably be the way we wind up going, because its cheaper than nuclear. Lets just hope the particulates increase the albedo and helps counteract global warming.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wind energy is the Liberal equivalent of Conservative &#8216;drill, drill, drill&#8217;. Easy to say because we know it will never happen on a scale big enough to prove it won&#8217;t work. There isn&#8217;t enough energy there to make it worth our while. Like solar, tidal, biofuels, geothermal, hydro, tar sands, oil shale, fusion or any of these other green or advanced technologies; it is too little too late.  They are either relying on a resource that is already tapped out, or will not yield enough energy to make a difference overall in time to do any good.</p>
<p>Natural gas may have a future, but who&#8217;s going to pay for the conversion, or the financial inefficiency of maintaining parallel delivery and marketing systems? You know all those commercials on TV are prep for the inevitable call for government subsidies to support a natural gas market.  Every time the energy lobby  pulls out that skinny blonde I reach for my wallet. That&#8217;s the drilling they&#8217;re really good at.</p>
<p>Barring some technological breakthrough (which I am convinced everyone is working feverishly for in the background, but which probably won&#8217;t come in time to help, if ever) there is only a limited handful of options we can rely on.</p>
<p>Conservation is the best bet, but only if enforced by law. Market enforcement will never be enough and will always come too late as long as the Saudis have any oil left to sell and don&#8217;t care what happens in the future. Nuclear, and coal, in that order our next best bet.  Everything else is ideological wishful thinking, something-for-nothing wet dreams from both right and left. </p>
<p>We&#8217;ve known this since the 70s, but nuclear looked so good at the time we didn&#8217;t worry about it too much;  we never implemented conservation because the business community wouldn&#8217;t hear it. We had an economy dependent on extravagant energy consumption, they weren&#8217;t about to mess around with that. Conservation is most effective when the need for it seems least pressing. So it never gets done in time to buy us any time or do us any good.</p>
<p>Nuclear didn&#8217;t pan out because the business community wasn&#8217;t willing to pay for the necessary safety infrastructure, either directly through rate hikes or indirectly through taxation, and the environmentalists refused to compromise on their exaggerated safety concerns. (Yes, TB.  They were exaggerated, not non-existent.) Besides, as long as oil was cheap no one worried about tomorrow.</p>
<p>Coal is plentiful, although the environmental costs of mining it are probably even worse than the pollutants produced by burning it. It will probably be the way we wind up going, because its cheaper than nuclear. Lets just hope the particulates increase the albedo and helps counteract global warming.</p>
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		<title>By: Eri</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/09/06/wind-energy-whoa/#comment-5463</link>
		<dc:creator>Eri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Sep 2011 03:35:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>G C O &amp; L.  Operating.  None proposed or closed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>G C O &#038; L.  Operating.  None proposed or closed.</p>
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		<title>By: TB</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/09/06/wind-energy-whoa/#comment-5455</link>
		<dc:creator>TB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Sep 2011 01:51:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>For fun, pop your Zip code into the &quot;My Community&quot; section of &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.energyjustice.net/map/index.php&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this page &lt;/a&gt;and see what power plants &lt;em&gt;are&lt;/em&gt; within a hundred miles of you.  Or much less.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For fun, pop your Zip code into the &#8220;My Community&#8221; section of <a href="http://www.energyjustice.net/map/index.php" rel="nofollow">this page </a>and see what power plants <em>are</em> within a hundred miles of you.  Or much less.</p>
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		<title>By: TB</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/09/06/wind-energy-whoa/#comment-5454</link>
		<dc:creator>TB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Sep 2011 01:37:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=3501#comment-5454</guid>
		<description>I saw a lot of giant windmills while driving across the country last month.  Most were out in farm country, or on the high plains.

An area of Minnesota I used to drive through as a kid to get to Grandma&#039;s, Lake Benton and the Buffalo Ridge, is a huge windmill farm.

The larger the windmill, the more efficient it is, and as a bonus, the slower it turns and the less damage there is to birds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I saw a lot of giant windmills while driving across the country last month.  Most were out in farm country, or on the high plains.</p>
<p>An area of Minnesota I used to drive through as a kid to get to Grandma&#8217;s, Lake Benton and the Buffalo Ridge, is a huge windmill farm.</p>
<p>The larger the windmill, the more efficient it is, and as a bonus, the slower it turns and the less damage there is to birds.</p>
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