Comments on: A perfect example. https://habitablezone.com/2011/09/30/a-perfect-example/ Fri, 03 Apr 2026 22:41:18 -0700 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: bowser https://habitablezone.com/2011/09/30/a-perfect-example/#comment-6610 bowser Sun, 02 Oct 2011 06:14:59 +0000 http://habitablezone.com/?p=4120#comment-6610 So, no more hollaring "TERRORIST BASTARDS" when they attack us. As far as risking lives goes, I know you are aware of the concept of the "mission", but more on that in another post. Arf So, no more hollaring “TERRORIST BASTARDS” when they attack us.

As far as risking lives goes, I know you are aware of the concept of the “mission”, but more on that in another post.

Arf

]]> By: ER https://habitablezone.com/2011/09/30/a-perfect-example/#comment-6569 ER Sat, 01 Oct 2011 19:35:43 +0000 http://habitablezone.com/?p=4120#comment-6569 So, if the US had risked the lives of a crack assassination team by sending them into one of the most dangerous places on earth, and secretly killed a terrorist, somehow this would be better for America's reputation than taking him out with a missile? I'm sorry, Bowser. It does not compute. By the way, we did the same thing to Bin Ladin. The only difference is he was not carrying a USA passport. Your remarks have merit, and I do see your point. But this is a guy who had declared war on our country, and has either killed or tried to kill our innocents, or had encouraged others to do so. Where his passport was issued is only a technicality. It is not the same as a jihadist who is taken prisoner attacking our troops while they were in his country conducting military operations. He has rights. Al_Awliki did not. So, if the US had risked the lives of a crack assassination team by sending them into one of the most dangerous places on earth, and secretly killed a terrorist, somehow this would be better for America’s reputation than taking him out with a missile? I’m sorry, Bowser. It does not compute.

By the way, we did the same thing to Bin Ladin. The only difference is he was not carrying a USA passport.

Your remarks have merit, and I do see your point. But this is a guy who had declared war on our country, and has either killed or tried to kill our innocents, or had encouraged others to do so. Where his passport was issued is only a technicality.

It is not the same as a jihadist who is taken prisoner attacking our troops while they were in his country conducting military operations. He has rights. Al_Awliki did not.

]]> By: bowser https://habitablezone.com/2011/09/30/a-perfect-example/#comment-6560 bowser Sat, 01 Oct 2011 18:26:27 +0000 http://habitablezone.com/?p=4120#comment-6560 The problem isn't killing Al-Awliki, really. The problem is doing it the way it was done - publically, as a matter of national policy, in violation of international agreements and the US Constitution and Bill of Rights. That's why there are Special Forces, folks who are supposed to operate in the dark, with deniability. What this killing has done is tell the ROW in public that the US cannot be trusted. Can't be trusted to honor international agreements, can't even be trusted to respect it's own Constitution. And as the economic power of the US wanes, other countries will be free to regard us as just another rogue nation. If one doesn't respect oneself, no one else will either. Operations such as this cost the perp more than the victim. The problem isn’t killing Al-Awliki, really. The problem is doing it the way it was done – publically, as a matter of national policy, in violation of international agreements and the US Constitution and Bill of Rights.

That’s why there are Special Forces, folks who are supposed to operate in the dark, with deniability.

What this killing has done is tell the ROW in public that the US cannot be trusted. Can’t be trusted to honor international agreements, can’t even be trusted to respect it’s own Constitution. And as the economic power of the US wanes, other countries will be free to regard us as just another rogue nation. If one doesn’t respect oneself, no one else will either.

Operations such as this cost the perp more than the victim.

]]> By: TB https://habitablezone.com/2011/09/30/a-perfect-example/#comment-6555 TB Sat, 01 Oct 2011 16:24:25 +0000 http://habitablezone.com/?p=4120#comment-6555 Shorter version: Those damn fascists keep calling people with opposing opinions names. Shorter version: Those damn fascists keep calling people with opposing opinions names.

]]> By: ER https://habitablezone.com/2011/09/30/a-perfect-example/#comment-6552 ER Sat, 01 Oct 2011 14:40:47 +0000 http://habitablezone.com/?p=4120#comment-6552 I personally do not agree that killing Al-Awliki violates American principles. The bastard deserved what he got and we were perfectly entitled to give it to him. But I DO agree that there are too many who are too quick to criticize those who hold opinions contrary to theirs as being un-American, or un-patriotic. As you point out, by a process I call "Adjectival linguistic creep", other political, social or economic opinions have been added to the list of crimes those with unpopular opinions have been accused of committing. For example, we have to defend ourselves of charges of being "Socialist" or "Statist", even though we may not be one, or even agree with the definition being bandied about by the accuser. Not to mention, being a socialist or statist is not illegal, or even immoral. In a way, this behavior has turned out to be quite useful. Now that being a bigot is no longer socially accepted, this is a convenient way to locate them. And now that there is confusion as to just what a fascist is, this is the perfect to way identify them. I personally do not agree that killing Al-Awliki violates American principles. The bastard deserved what he got and we were perfectly entitled to give it to him.

But I DO agree that there are too many who are too quick to criticize those who hold opinions contrary to theirs as being un-American, or un-patriotic. As you point out, by a process I call “Adjectival linguistic creep”, other political, social or economic opinions have been added to the list of crimes those with unpopular opinions have been accused of committing. For example, we have to defend ourselves of charges of being “Socialist” or “Statist”, even though we may not be one, or even agree with the definition being bandied about by the accuser. Not to mention, being a socialist or statist is not illegal, or even immoral.

In a way, this behavior has turned out to be quite useful. Now that being a bigot is no longer socially accepted, this is a convenient way to locate them. And now that there is confusion as to just what a fascist is, this is the perfect to way identify them.

]]> By: Eri https://habitablezone.com/2011/09/30/a-perfect-example/#comment-6540 Eri Sat, 01 Oct 2011 07:03:22 +0000 http://habitablezone.com/?p=4120#comment-6540 I understand the outrage expressed here but don't share it in this case. We don't know what might have been tried. Yemen is a difficult situation and if they allowed us to operate there (i.e. SEALS mission) or we did it without their permission, the ramifications could well have consequences that would not be good for US interests. I do not classify you or Bowser as terrorists or any of the other unsavory things you mentioned. You are both thoughtful men of good conscience and we disagree on this items. I personally believe that Al whatever his name is has encouraged terrorism and murder within the US and has caused murder. He was born in Yemen. The US can take away the citizenship of any person who commits crimes of that nature or treason and as far as I'm concerned, that terrorist abrogated his citizenship and all rights associated with it when he began encouraging terrorist to kill US citizens. Having just reviewed the Constitution for VRB's other thread, I see that we did deny a US citizen (I think two of them) due process. We should have revoked their citizenship first and maybe done a trial in absentia. However, as a practical matter, I do believe they are attempting to protect more American citizens (i.e. you and me) from getting killed. It's a sticky area and you have a valid argument. That said, I still support what they did because we are at war with terrorists and anyone working with them is fair game. I think during WWII, Korea or VietNam, any American cooperating with the enemy would have been fair game, too, unless they voluntarily came back to US territory for trial. It is not incumbent upon us to risk our soldier's live to capture them. I understand the outrage expressed here but don’t share it in this case. We don’t know what might have been tried. Yemen is a difficult situation and if they allowed us to operate there (i.e. SEALS mission) or we did it without their permission, the ramifications could well have consequences that would not be good for US interests.

I do not classify you or Bowser as terrorists or any of the other unsavory things you mentioned. You are both thoughtful men of good conscience and we disagree on this items.

I personally believe that Al whatever his name is has encouraged terrorism and murder within the US and has caused murder. He was born in Yemen. The US can take away the citizenship of any person who commits crimes of that nature or treason and as far as I’m concerned, that terrorist abrogated his citizenship and all rights associated with it when he began encouraging terrorist to kill US citizens.

Having just reviewed the Constitution for VRB’s other thread, I see that we did deny a US citizen (I think two of them) due process. We should have revoked their citizenship first and maybe done a trial in absentia. However, as a practical matter, I do believe they are attempting to protect more American citizens (i.e. you and me) from getting killed. It’s a sticky area and you have a valid argument.

That said, I still support what they did because we are at war with terrorists and anyone working with them is fair game. I think during WWII, Korea or VietNam, any American cooperating with the enemy would have been fair game, too, unless they voluntarily came back to US territory for trial. It is not incumbent upon us to risk our soldier’s live to capture them.

]]> By: VelociraptorBlade https://habitablezone.com/2011/09/30/a-perfect-example/#comment-6538 VelociraptorBlade Sat, 01 Oct 2011 05:12:05 +0000 http://habitablezone.com/?p=4120#comment-6538 And if we try to speak out against it, we're immediately classified as part of some unsavory group, like terrorists, bloggers, mentally disabled people, nutjobs, hippies, communists, fags, yuppies, lobbyists, gamers - basically anything that's a magnet for hatred. And any action we do take is immediate ridiculed and minimized in the eyes of others. I remember seeing a few posts on numerous other websites wondering whatever happened to the "I'm mad as hell and i'm not going to take it any more!" attitude that the US used to have. Nowadays, most people that can or could act have atrophied, and those who can't prevent others from doing so. The US IS becoming more corrupt, and has been for.... well, forever, really. with each day, If it weren't for the atrophied americans, you'd expect a revolution like the ones in the Middle East. As for the guy at hand, while killing him for treason may have some shaky legal ground, he's still entitled to some sort of trial. I'm pretty sure one wasn't involved. Side note, if the Christians believe that The New Covenant in the New Testament and other teachings there supercede everything in the Old Testament, then why the hell do we have the Old one? Makes no sense (just like the rest of the religion). And if we try to speak out against it, we’re immediately classified as part of some unsavory group, like terrorists, bloggers, mentally disabled people, nutjobs, hippies, communists, fags, yuppies, lobbyists, gamers – basically anything that’s a magnet for hatred. And any action we do take is immediate ridiculed and minimized in the eyes of others.

I remember seeing a few posts on numerous other websites wondering whatever happened to the “I’m mad as hell and i’m not going to take it any more!” attitude that the US used to have. Nowadays, most people that can or could act have atrophied, and those who can’t prevent others from doing so.

The US IS becoming more corrupt, and has been for…. well, forever, really. with each day, If it weren’t for the atrophied americans, you’d expect a revolution like the ones in the Middle East.

As for the guy at hand, while killing him for treason may have some shaky legal ground, he’s still entitled to some sort of trial. I’m pretty sure one wasn’t involved.

Side note, if the Christians believe that The New Covenant in the New Testament and other teachings there supercede everything in the Old Testament, then why the hell do we have the Old one? Makes no sense (just like the rest of the religion).

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