Comments on: 9-9-9 = a bigger piece of your pie https://habitablezone.com/2011/10/13/9-9-9-a-bigger-piece-of-your-pie/ Thu, 23 Apr 2026 21:07:28 -0700 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: TB https://habitablezone.com/2011/10/13/9-9-9-a-bigger-piece-of-your-pie/#comment-7356 TB Sat, 15 Oct 2011 17:42:55 +0000 http://habitablezone.com/?p=4501#comment-7356 There are over six million fewer private employees paying income tax today than there were in January of 2008. I don't know how many of them are currently collecting government unemployment in near-perpetuity. Meanwhile, overall Federal spending has gone up by about $900 billion dollars. You want a dent in your budget, that will do it. There are over six million fewer private employees paying income tax today than there were in January of 2008. I don’t know how many of them are currently collecting government unemployment in near-perpetuity. Meanwhile, overall Federal spending has gone up by about $900 billion dollars. You want a dent in your budget, that will do it.

]]> By: RobVG https://habitablezone.com/2011/10/13/9-9-9-a-bigger-piece-of-your-pie/#comment-7355 RobVG Sat, 15 Oct 2011 17:28:31 +0000 http://habitablezone.com/?p=4501#comment-7355 If someone perceives that they might possibly lose their job at some point in the future, that's usually enough to make them quit spending. But they continue to work and pay income tax. That's the theory anyway. If someone perceives that they might possibly lose their job at some point in the future, that’s usually enough to make them quit spending. But they continue to work and pay income tax.

That’s the theory anyway.

]]> By: TB https://habitablezone.com/2011/10/13/9-9-9-a-bigger-piece-of-your-pie/#comment-7330 TB Sat, 15 Oct 2011 01:51:53 +0000 http://habitablezone.com/?p=4501#comment-7330 Yeah, but incomes tend to dry up during an economic downturn, too. States with income taxes aren't getting the revenue either. Yeah, but incomes tend to dry up during an economic downturn, too. States with income taxes aren’t getting the revenue either.

]]> By: RobVG https://habitablezone.com/2011/10/13/9-9-9-a-bigger-piece-of-your-pie/#comment-7325 RobVG Sat, 15 Oct 2011 01:11:00 +0000 http://habitablezone.com/?p=4501#comment-7325 <p>"Consumption" taxes are inherently unstable</p> With a sales tax, government revenues will dry up during a downturn in the economy. People simply tighten their belts leading to a drop in retail spending. Our state only has a sales tax and legislators are jumping through hoops to keep the state on budget. “Consumption” taxes are inherently unstable

With a sales tax, government revenues will dry up during a downturn in the economy. People simply tighten their belts leading to a drop in retail spending.

Our state only has a sales tax and legislators are jumping through hoops to keep the state on budget.

]]> By: TB https://habitablezone.com/2011/10/13/9-9-9-a-bigger-piece-of-your-pie/#comment-7241 TB Fri, 14 Oct 2011 01:39:59 +0000 http://habitablezone.com/?p=4501#comment-7241 Remarkable. It's like watching Neo doing "bullet time." Remarkable. It’s like watching Neo doing “bullet time.”

]]> By: Eri https://habitablezone.com/2011/10/13/9-9-9-a-bigger-piece-of-your-pie/#comment-7234 Eri Fri, 14 Oct 2011 00:52:22 +0000 http://habitablezone.com/?p=4501#comment-7234 What amazes me is the Conservatives' ability to blind themselves to the Real World. As they chop holes in the ship below the waterline, they constantly deny the ship is sinking and then when it sinks, deny the fact that they chopped the holes in it. What amazes me is the Conservatives’ ability to blind themselves to the Real World. As they chop holes in the ship below the waterline, they constantly deny the ship is sinking and then when it sinks, deny the fact that they chopped the holes in it.

]]> By: TB https://habitablezone.com/2011/10/13/9-9-9-a-bigger-piece-of-your-pie/#comment-7223 TB Thu, 13 Oct 2011 22:41:50 +0000 http://habitablezone.com/?p=4501#comment-7223 <blockquote>"We are in the midst of a recession caused by reducing taxes on the wealthy, their investment in hedge funds, the collapse of the financial structure due to that greed, Obama having to bail out the wealthy, wars fought on money Obama is expected to raise, and someone still believes that disastrous course should be followed." "Tax cuts for the wealthy, sold as job creation snake oil, brought us here. And we need more of this?"</blockquote> Be careful not to merge tax rates and mortgage funds into the same bucket. The latter caused an economic crash. The former did not. As far as "snake oil" is concerned, I've pointed out more than once that the tax rates right this minute, with the current employment situation, are <em>exactly</em> what they were back in 2008 when there were 6.6 million more payroll jobs than there are now, and 5.5 million more than at the peak of the 90s in 2001. I'm not seeing a lot of actual causality issues here. As far as "tax cuts for the wealthy" are concerned, Obama let the cat out of the bag when he extended <em>all </em>of the rates. Turns out the vast majority of those tax cuts were going to those making under $250,000. By a factor of over four times. It wasn't "tax cuts for the wealthy." Never was. You can play with the combinations <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/business/comparing-the-tax-plans/" rel="nofollow">here.</a>

“We are in the midst of a recession caused by reducing taxes on the wealthy, their investment in hedge funds, the collapse of the financial structure due to that greed, Obama having to bail out the wealthy, wars fought on money Obama is expected to raise, and someone still believes that disastrous course should be followed.”

“Tax cuts for the wealthy, sold as job creation snake oil, brought us here. And we need more of this?”

Be careful not to merge tax rates and mortgage funds into the same bucket. The latter caused an economic crash. The former did not.

As far as “snake oil” is concerned, I’ve pointed out more than once that the tax rates right this minute, with the current employment situation, are exactly what they were back in 2008 when there were 6.6 million more payroll jobs than there are now, and 5.5 million more than at the peak of the 90s in 2001. I’m not seeing a lot of actual causality issues here.

As far as “tax cuts for the wealthy” are concerned, Obama let the cat out of the bag when he extended all of the rates. Turns out the vast majority of those tax cuts were going to those making under $250,000. By a factor of over four times. It wasn’t “tax cuts for the wealthy.” Never was. You can play with the combinations here.

]]> By: bowser https://habitablezone.com/2011/10/13/9-9-9-a-bigger-piece-of-your-pie/#comment-7219 bowser Thu, 13 Oct 2011 20:23:00 +0000 http://habitablezone.com/?p=4501#comment-7219 Belongs under TB just below, will move after lunch. Belongs under TB just below, will move after lunch.

]]> By: bowser https://habitablezone.com/2011/10/13/9-9-9-a-bigger-piece-of-your-pie/#comment-7217 bowser Thu, 13 Oct 2011 20:21:44 +0000 http://habitablezone.com/?p=4501#comment-7217 We are in the midst of a recession caused by reducing taxes on the wealthy, their investment in hedge funds, the collapse of the financial structure due to that greed, Obama having to bail out the wealthy, wars fought on money Obama is expected to raise, and someone still believes that disastrous course should be followed. Tax cuts for the wealthy, sold as job creation snake oil, brought us here. And we need more of this? Barnum said something about one every minute, and fundamentalists talk about re-birth, but no one has mentioned that one of Barnums best would be re-born every minute. If we can't learn from history, what can we learn from? What with global warming and the changes in our society and government, I hope we learn to live on bananas. Arf We are in the midst of a recession caused by reducing taxes on the wealthy, their investment in hedge funds, the collapse of the financial structure due to that greed, Obama having to bail out the wealthy, wars fought on money Obama is expected to raise, and someone still believes that disastrous course should be followed.

Tax cuts for the wealthy, sold as job creation snake oil, brought us here. And we need more of this?

Barnum said something about one every minute, and fundamentalists talk about re-birth, but no one has mentioned that one of Barnums best would be re-born every minute.

If we can’t learn from history, what can we learn from? What with global warming and the changes in our society and government, I hope we learn to live on bananas.

Arf

]]> By: TB https://habitablezone.com/2011/10/13/9-9-9-a-bigger-piece-of-your-pie/#comment-7213 TB Thu, 13 Oct 2011 19:32:03 +0000 http://habitablezone.com/?p=4501#comment-7213 <p>As for taxes, I have my own issues with Cain's specifics, although his principles are right.</p> I am inherently wary of any tax reform that includes a national sales tax without elimination of the income tax. Either one, but not both. The advantage to a consumption tax instead of an income tax is that there is no paperwork for the taxpayer, and anyone who buys things will be paying it. The gains in privacy and reductions (billions!) in tax preparation costs make it very appealing. Also, a consumption tax is very transparent. It's hard to sneak a tax increase in without everybody noticing. Most tax proposals I've seen along those lines have a minimum income cutout to protect the poor. Unfortunately, there is vast political power to be had in our current tax code with all of its little special deals. Favors can be easily dispensed to political friends, and punishments to political enemies. It will be a hard sell to strip that power away from our political class. As for taxes, I have my own issues with Cain’s specifics, although his principles are right.

I am inherently wary of any tax reform that includes a national sales tax without elimination of the income tax. Either one, but not both.

The advantage to a consumption tax instead of an income tax is that there is no paperwork for the taxpayer, and anyone who buys things will be paying it. The gains in privacy and reductions (billions!) in tax preparation costs make it very appealing.

Also, a consumption tax is very transparent. It’s hard to sneak a tax increase in without everybody noticing.

Most tax proposals I’ve seen along those lines have a minimum income cutout to protect the poor.

Unfortunately, there is vast political power to be had in our current tax code with all of its little special deals. Favors can be easily dispensed to political friends, and punishments to political enemies. It will be a hard sell to strip that power away from our political class.

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