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	<title>Comments on: Neutrinos are FTL-capable again.</title>
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	<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/11/18/neutrinos-are-ftl-capable-again/</link>
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		<title>By: Jody</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/11/18/neutrinos-are-ftl-capable-again/#comment-8718</link>
		<dc:creator>Jody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Nov 2011 15:55:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=5358#comment-8718</guid>
		<description>Maybe half true...density does matter to photons, however...it does not matter to its neutrino carrier, so when the photons &quot;stop&quot;, the neutrino keeps going.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe half true&#8230;density does matter to photons, however&#8230;it does not matter to its neutrino carrier, so when the photons &#8220;stop&#8221;, the neutrino keeps going.</p>
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		<title>By: BuckGalaxy</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/11/18/neutrinos-are-ftl-capable-again/#comment-8683</link>
		<dc:creator>BuckGalaxy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Nov 2011 00:26:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=5358#comment-8683</guid>
		<description>...
&lt;img src=&quot;http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e334/BuckGalaxy/nutrino.jpg&quot; alt=&quot;on that note&quot; /&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;<br />
<img src="http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e334/BuckGalaxy/nutrino.jpg" alt="on that note" /></p>
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		<title>By: johannes</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/11/18/neutrinos-are-ftl-capable-again/#comment-8594</link>
		<dc:creator>johannes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Nov 2011 02:30:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=5358#comment-8594</guid>
		<description>That is an interesting concept, it would mean that the photon is moving at the speed of light even when it is within the atom, and simply continues travelling at the same speed when it exits the atomic structure.
That idea then raises the question: How do the various photons that can be emitted by an atom, coexist in such a small volume and why do they not influence the external world?
Another question would be: What method within an atom can create a photon that travels at the speed of light, even though the method that creates it, travels at a slower than light speed?
One theory of light states that photons are slowed down when they travel through dense material such as glass, the idea is that a prism causes different frequencies of light to be slowed down at a different rate and that is the reason why the prism can separate different colours from a white light.
If photons can be slowed down, then can they also be accelerated?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is an interesting concept, it would mean that the photon is moving at the speed of light even when it is within the atom, and simply continues travelling at the same speed when it exits the atomic structure.<br />
That idea then raises the question: How do the various photons that can be emitted by an atom, coexist in such a small volume and why do they not influence the external world?<br />
Another question would be: What method within an atom can create a photon that travels at the speed of light, even though the method that creates it, travels at a slower than light speed?<br />
One theory of light states that photons are slowed down when they travel through dense material such as glass, the idea is that a prism causes different frequencies of light to be slowed down at a different rate and that is the reason why the prism can separate different colours from a white light.<br />
If photons can be slowed down, then can they also be accelerated?</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/11/18/neutrinos-are-ftl-capable-again/#comment-8575</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Nov 2011 02:17:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=5358#comment-8575</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d say that if there&#039;s acceleration, then the speed won&#039;t be constant. But the basic conceptual problem here is that a photon can&#039;t be at rest, and is always moving at &lt;i&gt;c&lt;/i&gt;. It&#039;s that wave-particle duality thing (as I interpret it): If a photon were only a particle you could think of it accelerating from rest to some speed, but as a wave it just starts and stops; it&#039;s more like a signal than a bowling ball rolling through the universe (but also kinda like a bowling ball, too ;-))

This is straining my brain, considering that I&#039;m far from being a physicist. In fact, I have to confess that I had to consult wikipedia to verify my recollection about the nonstoppable photons. I wouldn&#039;t want you to take my answers as authoritative, I just enjoy riffing on physics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d say that if there&#8217;s acceleration, then the speed won&#8217;t be constant. But the basic conceptual problem here is that a photon can&#8217;t be at rest, and is always moving at <i>c</i>. It&#8217;s that wave-particle duality thing (as I interpret it): If a photon were only a particle you could think of it accelerating from rest to some speed, but as a wave it just starts and stops; it&#8217;s more like a signal than a bowling ball rolling through the universe (but also kinda like a bowling ball, too <img src='https://habitablezone.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> )</p>
<p>This is straining my brain, considering that I&#8217;m far from being a physicist. In fact, I have to confess that I had to consult wikipedia to verify my recollection about the nonstoppable photons. I wouldn&#8217;t want you to take my answers as authoritative, I just enjoy riffing on physics.</p>
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		<title>By: johannes</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/11/18/neutrinos-are-ftl-capable-again/#comment-8574</link>
		<dc:creator>johannes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Nov 2011 01:41:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=5358#comment-8574</guid>
		<description>How about if the acceleration is constant but the speed is not.
Do photons accelerate to their propagation speed; if so, then the speed would depend on the density of the material that the photons propagate trough.
Different types of vibrations could go through the same medium (space) at different speeds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How about if the acceleration is constant but the speed is not.<br />
Do photons accelerate to their propagation speed; if so, then the speed would depend on the density of the material that the photons propagate trough.<br />
Different types of vibrations could go through the same medium (space) at different speeds.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/11/18/neutrinos-are-ftl-capable-again/#comment-8571</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Nov 2011 20:40:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=5358#comment-8571</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re right that &quot;radiation&quot; is ambiguous, and now that I think about it, Spock&#039;s cliche is &quot;unknown form of energy&quot;. That&#039;s a purer example of the paradox I was getting at. Detecting an unknown form of energy is a paradox, but, as you say, failing to place electromagnetic radiation somewhere on the known scale is just incompetence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re right that &#8220;radiation&#8221; is ambiguous, and now that I think about it, Spock&#8217;s cliche is &#8220;unknown form of energy&#8221;. That&#8217;s a purer example of the paradox I was getting at. Detecting an unknown form of energy is a paradox, but, as you say, failing to place electromagnetic radiation somewhere on the known scale is just incompetence.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/11/18/neutrinos-are-ftl-capable-again/#comment-8569</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Nov 2011 20:26:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=5358#comment-8569</guid>
		<description>It sure would. Sounds like you&#039;ve been plugged into the Krell machine again ;-)

When I puzzled it out, it began with the realization that the term &quot;speed of light&quot; is misleading, because it puts the cart before the horse. It &lt;i&gt;happens&lt;/i&gt; that photons, being massless, &quot;want&quot; to move just as fast as they can. But it turns out that the universe has a speed limit, and that&#039;s &lt;i&gt;c&lt;/i&gt;, and it limits how fast the photons can move. And everything else, too.

But then Einstein questioned what we mean by &quot;move&quot; and &quot;speed&quot; with all that stuff about frames of reference and how they relate to each other. That&#039;s &lt;i&gt;relativity&lt;/i&gt; for you: It&#039;s all relative to where you&#039;re standing.

There&#039;s a lot to that, but my next epiphany came from the reading the classic conundrum of relativity: If two starships are approaching each other head-on, each one traveling at &lt;i&gt;c&lt;/i&gt;, what&#039;s their relative velocity?

Common sense would tell you that it&#039;s &lt;i&gt;2c&lt;/i&gt;, and the story wouldn&#039;t be interesting if common sense were correct, and I&#039;d just trail off here. But the answer is just &lt;i&gt;c&lt;/i&gt;, and for me the key to understanding the answer is that &lt;i&gt;c&lt;/i&gt; is, to paraphrase what you said, the &lt;i&gt;rate at which information propagates in the universe.&lt;/i&gt; You simply can&#039;t &lt;i&gt;know&lt;/i&gt; about that oncoming starship any faster than &lt;i&gt;c&lt;/i&gt;. It&#039;s as if the universe &quot;edits&quot; reality to make sure that laws like &lt;i&gt;c&lt;/i&gt; are never &lt;i&gt;perceived&lt;/i&gt; to be broken.

Here&#039;s one I&#039;ll bet the Krell didn&#039;t know. It&#039;s lately been theorized that the universe is a gigantic quantum computer, and the problem that it&#039;s computing is itself. The universe is a computer, and &lt;i&gt;c&lt;/i&gt; is it&#039;s clock rate. The universe&#039;s CPU can&#039;t work any faster, and just like a human video game that overloads its CPU with fast action, the action is scaled back to fit when it hits the walls like &lt;i&gt;c&lt;/i&gt;. The universe simply can&#039;t handle the scenario of two starships rushing at each other headlong at &lt;i&gt;c&lt;/i&gt;, so it cheats and slows down the action so that everything fits.

Cue the theremin music...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It sure would. Sounds like you&#8217;ve been plugged into the Krell machine again <img src='https://habitablezone.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>When I puzzled it out, it began with the realization that the term &#8220;speed of light&#8221; is misleading, because it puts the cart before the horse. It <i>happens</i> that photons, being massless, &#8220;want&#8221; to move just as fast as they can. But it turns out that the universe has a speed limit, and that&#8217;s <i>c</i>, and it limits how fast the photons can move. And everything else, too.</p>
<p>But then Einstein questioned what we mean by &#8220;move&#8221; and &#8220;speed&#8221; with all that stuff about frames of reference and how they relate to each other. That&#8217;s <i>relativity</i> for you: It&#8217;s all relative to where you&#8217;re standing.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a lot to that, but my next epiphany came from the reading the classic conundrum of relativity: If two starships are approaching each other head-on, each one traveling at <i>c</i>, what&#8217;s their relative velocity?</p>
<p>Common sense would tell you that it&#8217;s <i>2c</i>, and the story wouldn&#8217;t be interesting if common sense were correct, and I&#8217;d just trail off here. But the answer is just <i>c</i>, and for me the key to understanding the answer is that <i>c</i> is, to paraphrase what you said, the <i>rate at which information propagates in the universe.</i> You simply can&#8217;t <i>know</i> about that oncoming starship any faster than <i>c</i>. It&#8217;s as if the universe &#8220;edits&#8221; reality to make sure that laws like <i>c</i> are never <i>perceived</i> to be broken.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s one I&#8217;ll bet the Krell didn&#8217;t know. It&#8217;s lately been theorized that the universe is a gigantic quantum computer, and the problem that it&#8217;s computing is itself. The universe is a computer, and <i>c</i> is it&#8217;s clock rate. The universe&#8217;s CPU can&#8217;t work any faster, and just like a human video game that overloads its CPU with fast action, the action is scaled back to fit when it hits the walls like <i>c</i>. The universe simply can&#8217;t handle the scenario of two starships rushing at each other headlong at <i>c</i>, so it cheats and slows down the action so that everything fits.</p>
<p>Cue the theremin music&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Jody</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/11/18/neutrinos-are-ftl-capable-again/#comment-8561</link>
		<dc:creator>Jody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Nov 2011 17:54:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Wouldn&#039;t the speed of light be the speed of perception? The observable? 

Maybe neutrinos are the speed of the unobservable?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wouldn&#8217;t the speed of light be the speed of perception? The observable? </p>
<p>Maybe neutrinos are the speed of the unobservable?</p>
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		<title>By: TB</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/11/18/neutrinos-are-ftl-capable-again/#comment-8547</link>
		<dc:creator>TB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Nov 2011 02:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=5358#comment-8547</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;When Spock looks at the readout, it says &quot;unknown form of radiation.&quot;&lt;/p&gt;  Kind of like smelling something you&#039;ve never smelled before.  &quot;Detection&quot; and &quot;identification&quot; are two different things.

Of course, &quot;radiation&quot; usually means electromagnetic radiation in strict usage, so really nothing could be &quot;unknown&quot; if its wavelength can be established.  Unusual, yes.

In practice, the word &quot;radiation&quot; is often stretched to include things like alpha and beta particles, and other things that are actually bits of matter being thrown off of something.  Anything considered &quot;unknown&quot; would probably have to fall into that category. 

Heck, Spock should take it up with the vendors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When Spock looks at the readout, it says &#8220;unknown form of radiation.&#8221;</p>
<p>  Kind of like smelling something you&#8217;ve never smelled before.  &#8220;Detection&#8221; and &#8220;identification&#8221; are two different things.</p>
<p>Of course, &#8220;radiation&#8221; usually means electromagnetic radiation in strict usage, so really nothing could be &#8220;unknown&#8221; if its wavelength can be established.  Unusual, yes.</p>
<p>In practice, the word &#8220;radiation&#8221; is often stretched to include things like alpha and beta particles, and other things that are actually bits of matter being thrown off of something.  Anything considered &#8220;unknown&#8221; would probably have to fall into that category. </p>
<p>Heck, Spock should take it up with the vendors.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2011/11/18/neutrinos-are-ftl-capable-again/#comment-8545</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Nov 2011 01:28:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=5358#comment-8545</guid>
		<description>What makes Alcubierre&#039;s idea so clever is that it doesn&#039;t actually violate Einsteinian physics. The ship would be motionless inside the &quot;warp bubble&quot; and even experience microgravity, because it&#039;s the bubble which is propagating through space carrying the ship along with it. And notice I couldn&#039;t even bring myself to say &quot;move&quot;, because it&#039;s a phenomenon, not a real thing but a momentary configuration of spacetime whose coordinates are continually translated. But nothing moves and Einstein still rules.

Not that you&#039;re not right about the principle of better measurements revealing new things. Precision&#039;s always a good thing. But there&#039;s a conceptual limitation, which I think of every time I hear Spock utter the cliche something like &quot;I&#039;m detecting an unknown form of radiation, Captain!&quot;. And I want to yell back at the Vulcan to say &quot;Spock, that&#039;s completely illogical! How can you build an instrument to detect something you didn&#039;t know existed?&quot;

I think the point, if any, of that small parable is that it seems like theorists have to first think of something before the experimentalists can build the apparatus to look for it or test the proposition. Better instruments alone can&#039;t make the really fundamental breakthroughs in physics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What makes Alcubierre&#8217;s idea so clever is that it doesn&#8217;t actually violate Einsteinian physics. The ship would be motionless inside the &#8220;warp bubble&#8221; and even experience microgravity, because it&#8217;s the bubble which is propagating through space carrying the ship along with it. And notice I couldn&#8217;t even bring myself to say &#8220;move&#8221;, because it&#8217;s a phenomenon, not a real thing but a momentary configuration of spacetime whose coordinates are continually translated. But nothing moves and Einstein still rules.</p>
<p>Not that you&#8217;re not right about the principle of better measurements revealing new things. Precision&#8217;s always a good thing. But there&#8217;s a conceptual limitation, which I think of every time I hear Spock utter the cliche something like &#8220;I&#8217;m detecting an unknown form of radiation, Captain!&#8221;. And I want to yell back at the Vulcan to say &#8220;Spock, that&#8217;s completely illogical! How can you build an instrument to detect something you didn&#8217;t know existed?&#8221;</p>
<p>I think the point, if any, of that small parable is that it seems like theorists have to first think of something before the experimentalists can build the apparatus to look for it or test the proposition. Better instruments alone can&#8217;t make the really fundamental breakthroughs in physics.</p>
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