<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: The Turkish Destroyer</title>
	<atom:link href="http://habitablezone.com/2012/03/18/the-turkish-destroyer-2/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/03/18/the-turkish-destroyer-2/</link>
	<description></description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 03 Apr 2026 22:41:18 -0700</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: VelociraptorBlade</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/03/18/the-turkish-destroyer-2/#comment-12664</link>
		<dc:creator>VelociraptorBlade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Mar 2012 20:16:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=11279#comment-12664</guid>
		<description>In that case, I grew up when I was 12. -_-</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In that case, I grew up when I was 12. -_-</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/03/18/the-turkish-destroyer-2/#comment-12640</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Mar 2012 13:05:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=11279#comment-12640</guid>
		<description>You start becoming an adult the first time your catch your parents in a lie or a dishonesty.

You become an adult the day you catch yourself confronted with the same moral choice they failed, and you fail it too.

Throwing the first stone, etc.  Even if you&#039;re not a Christian, it is excellent advice.  Forgive the sinner, but condemn hypocrisy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You start becoming an adult the first time your catch your parents in a lie or a dishonesty.</p>
<p>You become an adult the day you catch yourself confronted with the same moral choice they failed, and you fail it too.</p>
<p>Throwing the first stone, etc.  Even if you&#8217;re not a Christian, it is excellent advice.  Forgive the sinner, but condemn hypocrisy.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/03/18/the-turkish-destroyer-2/#comment-12639</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Mar 2012 12:48:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=11279#comment-12639</guid>
		<description>First, it must be mentioned the story was apocryphal.  I heard it at the scuttlebutt and I have no hard evidence it actually happened. It makes a point, not history.

Second, the whole idea of honor is cultural and relative.  When one of our guys does it we feel steely-eyed, stiff-backed and damp-cheeked.  When one of their guys does it we call it &quot;saving face&quot; and hold it in contempt; the quaint and ridiculous response of a primitive or unsophisticated culture.

Third, winning at any cost is an inevitable consequence of our corporate and commercial culture.  An individual entrepreneur would realize his reputation was his most important business asset, and protect it at all cost.  A politician would never welsh out on a promise or a deal with a colleague on the other side of the aisle. 

Today, a hired corporate manager or government bureaucrat knows only documentable performance counts, and only if he delivers will he succeed. And in politics, the ambush, the trap, the dirty deal, and thinly veiled blackmail is de rigeur.  Dishonor is winked at unless you&#039;re stealing from your owm firm, or betraying your own side, and even if you&#039;re fired for it, it rarely goes on your record. These guys cover for each other, and the bonuses were negotiated ahead of time.

Note the recent case of the whistle blower who reported how his colleagues thought of the clients they were  swindling as &quot;muppets&quot;. The Lehman scandal comes to mind, too. These people justify their malfeasance by pointing out the stupidity of their clients, or by bundling the bad loans and selling them off to some other sucker before they default. It&#039;s considered being a &quot;shrewd operator&quot;. It is rewarded in that culture.

The contempt of other corporate types for their clients and customers, as well as other coverups and downright crimes, has been amply documented. Why do you think people don&#039;t do business with handshakes any more? Its all contracts, fine print, fast talking disclaimers, caveats, lawyers and litigation, because these guys can&#039;t be trusted, and they don&#039;t trust each other. They are not about to take a loss that can be traced to a bad decision on their part if they can find some way of weaseling out of their obligations.

Lastly, a American captain would probably have lost his career and gone to prison if he did that.  A Turkish captain would have lost his career and been punished if he hadn&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First, it must be mentioned the story was apocryphal.  I heard it at the scuttlebutt and I have no hard evidence it actually happened. It makes a point, not history.</p>
<p>Second, the whole idea of honor is cultural and relative.  When one of our guys does it we feel steely-eyed, stiff-backed and damp-cheeked.  When one of their guys does it we call it &#8220;saving face&#8221; and hold it in contempt; the quaint and ridiculous response of a primitive or unsophisticated culture.</p>
<p>Third, winning at any cost is an inevitable consequence of our corporate and commercial culture.  An individual entrepreneur would realize his reputation was his most important business asset, and protect it at all cost.  A politician would never welsh out on a promise or a deal with a colleague on the other side of the aisle. </p>
<p>Today, a hired corporate manager or government bureaucrat knows only documentable performance counts, and only if he delivers will he succeed. And in politics, the ambush, the trap, the dirty deal, and thinly veiled blackmail is de rigeur.  Dishonor is winked at unless you&#8217;re stealing from your owm firm, or betraying your own side, and even if you&#8217;re fired for it, it rarely goes on your record. These guys cover for each other, and the bonuses were negotiated ahead of time.</p>
<p>Note the recent case of the whistle blower who reported how his colleagues thought of the clients they were  swindling as &#8220;muppets&#8221;. The Lehman scandal comes to mind, too. These people justify their malfeasance by pointing out the stupidity of their clients, or by bundling the bad loans and selling them off to some other sucker before they default. It&#8217;s considered being a &#8220;shrewd operator&#8221;. It is rewarded in that culture.</p>
<p>The contempt of other corporate types for their clients and customers, as well as other coverups and downright crimes, has been amply documented. Why do you think people don&#8217;t do business with handshakes any more? Its all contracts, fine print, fast talking disclaimers, caveats, lawyers and litigation, because these guys can&#8217;t be trusted, and they don&#8217;t trust each other. They are not about to take a loss that can be traced to a bad decision on their part if they can find some way of weaseling out of their obligations.</p>
<p>Lastly, a American captain would probably have lost his career and gone to prison if he did that.  A Turkish captain would have lost his career and been punished if he hadn&#8217;t.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: VelociraptorBlade</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/03/18/the-turkish-destroyer-2/#comment-12637</link>
		<dc:creator>VelociraptorBlade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Mar 2012 07:25:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=11279#comment-12637</guid>
		<description>Funny... I was told the same thing as a kid myself; and just like everything else they told me, it didn&#039;t apply to them.

Bowser, those men and women who told you that maxim - how faithfully did they follow it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Funny&#8230; I was told the same thing as a kid myself; and just like everything else they told me, it didn&#8217;t apply to them.</p>
<p>Bowser, those men and women who told you that maxim &#8211; how faithfully did they follow it?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: bowser</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/03/18/the-turkish-destroyer-2/#comment-12635</link>
		<dc:creator>bowser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Mar 2012 05:00:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=11279#comment-12635</guid>
		<description>That raises an interesting question.  Is there a sense of honor any more? 

A friend of mine and I were driving to a hike a few years ago.  He was a firm Conservative, funding many Conservative interests.  I thought I had a safe comment, and said that Cheney was a crook.  He reacted quite vigorously, then calmed and said, &quot;It&#039;s true there is no sense of shame any more.&quot;

When I was a kid we were taught that it&#039;s not whether you win or lose but how you play the game.  The culture today is to win at any cost, no matter what shortcuts are taken, how much the rules are stretched, and cheating is only wrong if one is caught.

I can&#039;t imagine an American destroyer captain doing the same.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That raises an interesting question.  Is there a sense of honor any more? </p>
<p>A friend of mine and I were driving to a hike a few years ago.  He was a firm Conservative, funding many Conservative interests.  I thought I had a safe comment, and said that Cheney was a crook.  He reacted quite vigorously, then calmed and said, &#8220;It&#8217;s true there is no sense of shame any more.&#8221;</p>
<p>When I was a kid we were taught that it&#8217;s not whether you win or lose but how you play the game.  The culture today is to win at any cost, no matter what shortcuts are taken, how much the rules are stretched, and cheating is only wrong if one is caught.</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t imagine an American destroyer captain doing the same.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
