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	<title>Comments on: For Vietnam veterans</title>
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		<title>By: TB</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/04/14/for-vietnam-veterans/#comment-13735</link>
		<dc:creator>TB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Apr 2012 00:46:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=13152#comment-13735</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I think ER was talking about the first Gulf War (Desert Storm).&lt;/p&gt;

I believe the only B-52 missions flown in the second Iraq war were in the initial invasion stage (April 2003).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think ER was talking about the first Gulf War (Desert Storm).</p>
<p>I believe the only B-52 missions flown in the second Iraq war were in the initial invasion stage (April 2003).</p>
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		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/04/14/for-vietnam-veterans/#comment-13734</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Apr 2012 00:21:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=13152#comment-13734</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t take full credit for that.

As a Reservist, I already had a year of drills, an abbreviated boot camp, and a training cruise under my belt. So I made Seaman Recruit when I took the oath and Seaman Apprentice while still a civilian. So I went aboard my ship as a full Seaman (E-3).  I got my Crow (made Third Class Petty Officer, E-4) 6 months later and Second Class after I left active duty and went back to the Ready Reserve.

Here&#039;s the Crow for QM2. It&#039;s worn on the left arm.  The ship&#039;s wheel insignia identifies my rate as &quot;Quartermaster&quot;.

&lt;img src=&quot;http://www.betadesigns.com/vgrfx/GIF/Watermarked/BetaStickers/Navy/Petty%20Officer%20Patches/Petty%20Officer%20Second%20Class/QM2.gif&quot; alt=&quot;.&quot; /&gt;

Other rating insignia you may recognize are crossed cannons (Gunner&#039;s Mate), crossed anchors (Boatswain&#039;s Mate), electric sparks (Radio Man), crossed flags (Signalman), A ship&#039;s screw (Engineer) and so on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t take full credit for that.</p>
<p>As a Reservist, I already had a year of drills, an abbreviated boot camp, and a training cruise under my belt. So I made Seaman Recruit when I took the oath and Seaman Apprentice while still a civilian. So I went aboard my ship as a full Seaman (E-3).  I got my Crow (made Third Class Petty Officer, E-4) 6 months later and Second Class after I left active duty and went back to the Ready Reserve.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s the Crow for QM2. It&#8217;s worn on the left arm.  The ship&#8217;s wheel insignia identifies my rate as &#8220;Quartermaster&#8221;.</p>
<p><img src="http://www.betadesigns.com/vgrfx/GIF/Watermarked/BetaStickers/Navy/Petty%20Officer%20Patches/Petty%20Officer%20Second%20Class/QM2.gif" alt="." /></p>
<p>Other rating insignia you may recognize are crossed cannons (Gunner&#8217;s Mate), crossed anchors (Boatswain&#8217;s Mate), electric sparks (Radio Man), crossed flags (Signalman), A ship&#8217;s screw (Engineer) and so on.</p>
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		<title>By: bowser</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/04/14/for-vietnam-veterans/#comment-13733</link>
		<dc:creator>bowser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Apr 2012 23:33:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=13152#comment-13733</guid>
		<description>They had it together only for the first phase, and they had a long time.

The didn&#039;t, and don&#039;t, have it together for the war they wound up fighting, an insurgency.  For all their value in many situations, a B-52 is not a hearts and minds tool.  I know, I know, you have to get their attention first.  But not by slaughtering them.  If it would work it would have worked by now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They had it together only for the first phase, and they had a long time.</p>
<p>The didn&#8217;t, and don&#8217;t, have it together for the war they wound up fighting, an insurgency.  For all their value in many situations, a B-52 is not a hearts and minds tool.  I know, I know, you have to get their attention first.  But not by slaughtering them.  If it would work it would have worked by now.</p>
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		<title>By: bowser</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/04/14/for-vietnam-veterans/#comment-13732</link>
		<dc:creator>bowser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Apr 2012 23:29:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=13152#comment-13732</guid>
		<description>Many commissioned officers were there because of the draft.  GWB comes to mind, had he gone there.  They would come out of college, deferments over, and face a harsh reality.  And the army enlisted about 10 people for every Warrant Officer pilot they needed, simply washing out the other 9 and handing them a rifle.

E-5 in 13 months is absolutely incredible.  Congratulations.  Takes a good brain, discipline and usually someone interested in you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Many commissioned officers were there because of the draft.  GWB comes to mind, had he gone there.  They would come out of college, deferments over, and face a harsh reality.  And the army enlisted about 10 people for every Warrant Officer pilot they needed, simply washing out the other 9 and handing them a rifle.</p>
<p>E-5 in 13 months is absolutely incredible.  Congratulations.  Takes a good brain, discipline and usually someone interested in you.</p>
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		<title>By: TB</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/04/14/for-vietnam-veterans/#comment-13730</link>
		<dc:creator>TB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Apr 2012 22:55:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=13152#comment-13730</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Agreed on the merits of the volunteer army.  Conscription has always gone against my grain.&lt;/p&gt;

I&#039;m not sure the draft will be necessary in the future, even if a &quot;big war&quot; comes up.  The days of thousands of ground troops advancing on an enemy position by sheer manpower may be behind us.  Knock on wood.

We were stressed on manpower with both Afghanistan and Iraq running full tilt, but I believe (no hard data) if it had only been one or the other, it may have been different. I don&#039;t know what kind of war would be &quot;bigger&quot; in the future, and with luck, we&#039;ll never find out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed on the merits of the volunteer army.  Conscription has always gone against my grain.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure the draft will be necessary in the future, even if a &#8220;big war&#8221; comes up.  The days of thousands of ground troops advancing on an enemy position by sheer manpower may be behind us.  Knock on wood.</p>
<p>We were stressed on manpower with both Afghanistan and Iraq running full tilt, but I believe (no hard data) if it had only been one or the other, it may have been different. I don&#8217;t know what kind of war would be &#8220;bigger&#8221; in the future, and with luck, we&#8217;ll never find out.</p>
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		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/04/14/for-vietnam-veterans/#comment-13728</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Apr 2012 22:03:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=13152#comment-13728</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t doubt that my not being there had a lot to do with my opinion of what was going on.  But I got the impression morale was much better, motivation was much better, the leadership was much better, the training seemed much better. 

Probably the biggest single factor was we had a volunteer army.  That made a huge difference, although it was greatly resisted at the time, it only makes sense people aren&#039;t going to give it their best if they feel they are in forced servitude. Its one thing when the country is fighting for its life, like in WWII, another when you can&#039;t get a straight answer why we&#039;re &quot;over there&quot;.

We have a professional army, like  the Roman legions. There&#039;s no question it works better.  But whether that is a good thing for a democracy, I don&#039;t know.  And I don&#039;t know how it will scale up if we ever get in a big war and have to institute conscription again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t doubt that my not being there had a lot to do with my opinion of what was going on.  But I got the impression morale was much better, motivation was much better, the leadership was much better, the training seemed much better. </p>
<p>Probably the biggest single factor was we had a volunteer army.  That made a huge difference, although it was greatly resisted at the time, it only makes sense people aren&#8217;t going to give it their best if they feel they are in forced servitude. Its one thing when the country is fighting for its life, like in WWII, another when you can&#8217;t get a straight answer why we&#8217;re &#8220;over there&#8221;.</p>
<p>We have a professional army, like  the Roman legions. There&#8217;s no question it works better.  But whether that is a good thing for a democracy, I don&#8217;t know.  And I don&#8217;t know how it will scale up if we ever get in a big war and have to institute conscription again.</p>
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		<title>By: TB</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/04/14/for-vietnam-veterans/#comment-13727</link>
		<dc:creator>TB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Apr 2012 21:26:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=13152#comment-13727</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&quot;I could not believe how well the military had their s**t together by the time we went to war in the Middle East.&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

Or maybe things always look better from the outside. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I could not believe how well the military had their s**t together by the time we went to war in the Middle East.&#8221;</p>
<p>Or maybe things always look better from the outside. <img src='https://habitablezone.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/04/14/for-vietnam-veterans/#comment-13726</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Apr 2012 21:08:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=13152#comment-13726</guid>
		<description>As far as I know, the fixed-wing flyboys were all commissioned, in all services. the chopper pilots in the Army were Warrant Officers. They got used up really quickly. But all pilots were volunteers. It takes to long to train them to assign draftees.

One of the major problems in Viet Nam was getting that combat ticket punched for the career officers.  Then they got out.  By the end of that 13 month tour, just when they were starting to get good at their job, they&#039;d get pulled out and some boot put in their place. 
The result was that the line officers, were all inexpereinced, or short.  In fact, I guess you could say that for most of the enlisted men, too.

In the Navy it was a little better, many had multiple tours, but my impression of the military is that it was mostly a goof ball outfit, the officers cared more about their careers than their duty. I told my skipper as much during my man-to-man &quot;shipping over&quot; speech when I was leaving the Dewey.  He said nothing to contradict me. I was offered a nice cash bonus to re-enlist and a chance to sew on my E5 stripe (even though I had already earned it by passing the exams). It was all screwed up, they were releasing me prematurely from my 2-year committment, but wanted to pay me to ship over.!) As it turned out, they let me sew on the stripe when I went to my home reserve unit anyway.  E5 in thirteen months. It was some kind of record in my rate.

I could not believe how well the military had their shit together by the time we went to war in the Middle East.  I sincerely believe the career officers and NCOs who survived the VietNam era committed themselves to reforming the military, and by the time of Desert Storm they were really, really good.  I was impressed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As far as I know, the fixed-wing flyboys were all commissioned, in all services. the chopper pilots in the Army were Warrant Officers. They got used up really quickly. But all pilots were volunteers. It takes to long to train them to assign draftees.</p>
<p>One of the major problems in Viet Nam was getting that combat ticket punched for the career officers.  Then they got out.  By the end of that 13 month tour, just when they were starting to get good at their job, they&#8217;d get pulled out and some boot put in their place.<br />
The result was that the line officers, were all inexpereinced, or short.  In fact, I guess you could say that for most of the enlisted men, too.</p>
<p>In the Navy it was a little better, many had multiple tours, but my impression of the military is that it was mostly a goof ball outfit, the officers cared more about their careers than their duty. I told my skipper as much during my man-to-man &#8220;shipping over&#8221; speech when I was leaving the Dewey.  He said nothing to contradict me. I was offered a nice cash bonus to re-enlist and a chance to sew on my E5 stripe (even though I had already earned it by passing the exams). It was all screwed up, they were releasing me prematurely from my 2-year committment, but wanted to pay me to ship over.!) As it turned out, they let me sew on the stripe when I went to my home reserve unit anyway.  E5 in thirteen months. It was some kind of record in my rate.</p>
<p>I could not believe how well the military had their shit together by the time we went to war in the Middle East.  I sincerely believe the career officers and NCOs who survived the VietNam era committed themselves to reforming the military, and by the time of Desert Storm they were really, really good.  I was impressed.</p>
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		<title>By: bowser</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/04/14/for-vietnam-veterans/#comment-13724</link>
		<dc:creator>bowser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Apr 2012 20:41:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=13152#comment-13724</guid>
		<description>Without a mandatory draft they would have had a very, very hard time finding ground combat people or Army pilots for that war.  The folks that liked it were the career people (&quot;It&#039;s not much of a war but it&#039;s the only war we have&quot;) and some of the Navy folks.

Up to that time one had to have a combat ticket punched to make General officer.  All the Air Force pilots were volunteers.  I don&#039;t know about the Navy and Marine Corps pilots.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Without a mandatory draft they would have had a very, very hard time finding ground combat people or Army pilots for that war.  The folks that liked it were the career people (&#8220;It&#8217;s not much of a war but it&#8217;s the only war we have&#8221;) and some of the Navy folks.</p>
<p>Up to that time one had to have a combat ticket punched to make General officer.  All the Air Force pilots were volunteers.  I don&#8217;t know about the Navy and Marine Corps pilots.</p>
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		<title>By: TB</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/04/14/for-vietnam-veterans/#comment-13721</link>
		<dc:creator>TB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Apr 2012 19:59:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=13152#comment-13721</guid>
		<description>Check out the &quot;Cold War&quot; and &quot;Vietnam War&quot; sections of &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_United_States#Cold_War&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this Wikipedia article,&lt;/a&gt; which addresses some of your points.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Check out the &#8220;Cold War&#8221; and &#8220;Vietnam War&#8221; sections of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_United_States#Cold_War" rel="nofollow">this Wikipedia article,</a> which addresses some of your points.</p>
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