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	<title>Comments on: Alternate History</title>
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		<title>By: TB</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/06/16/alternate-history/#comment-16211</link>
		<dc:creator>TB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jul 2012 16:17:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.habitablezone.com/?p=17127#comment-16211</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;When you&#039;re done reading the &quot;Watchmen&quot; comic...&lt;/p&gt;

Check out the original graphic novel of &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/V-Vendetta-Alan-Moore/dp/140120841X&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;V for Vendetta.&quot;&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When you&#8217;re done reading the &#8220;Watchmen&#8221; comic&#8230;</p>
<p>Check out the original graphic novel of <a href="http://www.amazon.com/V-Vendetta-Alan-Moore/dp/140120841X" rel="nofollow">&#8220;V for Vendetta.&#8221;</a></p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/06/16/alternate-history/#comment-16210</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jul 2012 16:11:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.habitablezone.com/?p=17127#comment-16210</guid>
		<description>Rather, I should say that I&#039;ve finished reading what Preston&#039;s written so far, but it&#039;s a work in progress.

His pace seems a little too fast to be plausible. I mistakenly wrote that it jumps off from today, but actually, change starts in 1947 and moves so rapidly that Earth is a starfaring society before the turn of the century. That seems a stretch, and he makes it look too easy, I think, by not accounting for all the geopolitical friction that gums up the real world.

As for how he disposes of the two known future Trek timelines, well, I won&#039;t spoil it, except to say that he dodges the whole issue by unexpectedly cross-threading an entirely different fictional universe. Unfortunately, in what&#039;s written so far, he&#039;s barely developed that connection, so it seems a bit gratuitous and &quot;flat&quot;...so far.

I&#039;d say that, overall, I was disappointed, but maybe that&#039;s because &quot;The Black and the Grey&quot; set a high standard. LGM wasn&#039;t bad, but it didn&#039;t grab me as much as the first one.

I&#039;m going to continue to graze at the site. Stay tuned....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rather, I should say that I&#8217;ve finished reading what Preston&#8217;s written so far, but it&#8217;s a work in progress.</p>
<p>His pace seems a little too fast to be plausible. I mistakenly wrote that it jumps off from today, but actually, change starts in 1947 and moves so rapidly that Earth is a starfaring society before the turn of the century. That seems a stretch, and he makes it look too easy, I think, by not accounting for all the geopolitical friction that gums up the real world.</p>
<p>As for how he disposes of the two known future Trek timelines, well, I won&#8217;t spoil it, except to say that he dodges the whole issue by unexpectedly cross-threading an entirely different fictional universe. Unfortunately, in what&#8217;s written so far, he&#8217;s barely developed that connection, so it seems a bit gratuitous and &#8220;flat&#8221;&#8230;so far.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d say that, overall, I was disappointed, but maybe that&#8217;s because &#8220;The Black and the Grey&#8221; set a high standard. LGM wasn&#8217;t bad, but it didn&#8217;t grab me as much as the first one.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m going to continue to graze at the site. Stay tuned&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: FrankC</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/06/16/alternate-history/#comment-15999</link>
		<dc:creator>FrankC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2012 19:51:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.habitablezone.com/?p=17127#comment-15999</guid>
		<description>Yes, I saw the movie and enjoyed it. I then found out that one of my grandsons had the graphic novel (another name for a big fat comic book) It was excellent and filled in a lot of the blanks from the movie.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I saw the movie and enjoyed it. I then found out that one of my grandsons had the graphic novel (another name for a big fat comic book) It was excellent and filled in a lot of the blanks from the movie.</p>
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		<title>By: FrankC</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/06/16/alternate-history/#comment-15975</link>
		<dc:creator>FrankC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jun 2012 00:51:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.habitablezone.com/?p=17127#comment-15975</guid>
		<description>I haven&#039;t read any of the Star Trek stuff yet. You have piqued my interest so I will probably give them a look.

I have scanned his Egyptian timeline and I gave you my opinion on that. 

I also read his Red, White and Blue...and shades of Black and Gray fiction piece. It is readable and I will continue to follow if he continues to add to it and it remains free. I am not engaged enough to pay for anything at this point.

I read his Lee&#039;s Cannae timeline. It is a short interesting piece that, to his credit, does not change the outcome of the war.

There are a few more I will probably get around to looking over. I doubt I will read about the destruction of Rome because I love Rome too much and I am not interested in Abraham Lincoln of Mississippi.

Oh yeah, I read his sarcasm piece, &quot;Evil Confederate Wank&quot;. Humor is not his forte and it is a waste of time imo.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven&#8217;t read any of the Star Trek stuff yet. You have piqued my interest so I will probably give them a look.</p>
<p>I have scanned his Egyptian timeline and I gave you my opinion on that. </p>
<p>I also read his Red, White and Blue&#8230;and shades of Black and Gray fiction piece. It is readable and I will continue to follow if he continues to add to it and it remains free. I am not engaged enough to pay for anything at this point.</p>
<p>I read his Lee&#8217;s Cannae timeline. It is a short interesting piece that, to his credit, does not change the outcome of the war.</p>
<p>There are a few more I will probably get around to looking over. I doubt I will read about the destruction of Rome because I love Rome too much and I am not interested in Abraham Lincoln of Mississippi.</p>
<p>Oh yeah, I read his sarcasm piece, &#8220;Evil Confederate Wank&#8221;. Humor is not his forte and it is a waste of time imo.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/06/16/alternate-history/#comment-15974</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2012 22:32:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.habitablezone.com/?p=17127#comment-15974</guid>
		<description>I think I&#039;m a realist about history and historical forces. The difference in attitudes about race between North and South was of degree, not absolute. Preston did a good enough job demonstrating how losing the war could sour race relations in the North. British attitudes toward &quot;Nova Africanus&quot; seemed plausible too. The Empire had subjects, second-class citizens but not slaves, and it makes a difference.

It&#039;s true that the Confederacy does come off looking better than the &quot;US&quot; and the Republic of Texas. But I&#039;m coming to respect Preston&#039;s attention to detail. In our timeline quite a few &quot;great men&quot; come from the South, but in a unified country we&#039;re prone to not notice. But Preston populates his Confederacy with names we recognize...well, memory fails me a few days later, but several statesman, a hereditary line of scientists, and the airplane guy...Ryan, was it? Anyway, Preston portrays many of the people in OTL who contribute to the US, contributing just as much to the South.

Wasn&#039;t a complete whitewash anyway. There were something like four of the Confederate states who held out against extending citizenship to blacks until the very bitter end, and that was ugly.

I did start to explore other works on Preston&#039;s site. I&#039;m currently strolling through the alternate Star Trek DS:9 episode (stop me if you&#039;ve heard this one: three Ferengi crash land at Roswell in 1947), a little bit here or there. I&#039;ve reached the cusp where it looks like things will really branch off (about present-day), so I&#039;m curious to see how he disposes of the entire future Star Trek time line. Both of them: The guy&#039;s going to nuke JJ Abrams&#039; timeline too. That&#039;s chutzpah.

I&#039;ve enjoyed Star Trek&#039;s forays into AH, BTW. I&#039;ve always thought that &lt;i&gt;Enterprise&lt;/i&gt; could&#039;ve made it if more of its episodes had been as creative as the update to &quot;Mirror Mirror&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I&#8217;m a realist about history and historical forces. The difference in attitudes about race between North and South was of degree, not absolute. Preston did a good enough job demonstrating how losing the war could sour race relations in the North. British attitudes toward &#8220;Nova Africanus&#8221; seemed plausible too. The Empire had subjects, second-class citizens but not slaves, and it makes a difference.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s true that the Confederacy does come off looking better than the &#8220;US&#8221; and the Republic of Texas. But I&#8217;m coming to respect Preston&#8217;s attention to detail. In our timeline quite a few &#8220;great men&#8221; come from the South, but in a unified country we&#8217;re prone to not notice. But Preston populates his Confederacy with names we recognize&#8230;well, memory fails me a few days later, but several statesman, a hereditary line of scientists, and the airplane guy&#8230;Ryan, was it? Anyway, Preston portrays many of the people in OTL who contribute to the US, contributing just as much to the South.</p>
<p>Wasn&#8217;t a complete whitewash anyway. There were something like four of the Confederate states who held out against extending citizenship to blacks until the very bitter end, and that was ugly.</p>
<p>I did start to explore other works on Preston&#8217;s site. I&#8217;m currently strolling through the alternate Star Trek DS:9 episode (stop me if you&#8217;ve heard this one: three Ferengi crash land at Roswell in 1947), a little bit here or there. I&#8217;ve reached the cusp where it looks like things will really branch off (about present-day), so I&#8217;m curious to see how he disposes of the entire future Star Trek time line. Both of them: The guy&#8217;s going to nuke JJ Abrams&#8217; timeline too. That&#8217;s chutzpah.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve enjoyed Star Trek&#8217;s forays into AH, BTW. I&#8217;ve always thought that <i>Enterprise</i> could&#8217;ve made it if more of its episodes had been as creative as the update to &#8220;Mirror Mirror&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Jody</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/06/16/alternate-history/#comment-15949</link>
		<dc:creator>Jody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2012 03:03:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.habitablezone.com/?p=17127#comment-15949</guid>
		<description>Speaking of alternate history...I just finished The Watchmen. I had never seen it before...has anyone seen it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking of alternate history&#8230;I just finished The Watchmen. I had never seen it before&#8230;has anyone seen it?</p>
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		<title>By: FrankC</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/06/16/alternate-history/#comment-15947</link>
		<dc:creator>FrankC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2012 02:14:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.habitablezone.com/?p=17127#comment-15947</guid>
		<description>His timeline has the South winning by using their own slaves and runaways returning from the North to change the outcome. 

This is followed by a backlash in the North resulting in expulsion of all Blacks from the USA and the creation of a new black republic out of Nova Scotia.

I just wouldn&#039;t want to deal with, &quot;yeah here&#039;s another guy from the South aggrandizing the Confederacy and laying off on the North with some figment of another Southerner&#039;s imagination.

It was interesting and that is all. I assign no value to anything he wrote down beyond complimenting him for his attention to detail. Anyone that questioned the motive for my interest would irk me no end. :)

I doubt that I would want to read it as fiction. I and you are probably unusual to have enjoyed reading it in it&#039;s dry form.

On the site there is another even more lengthy (or it seemed so) and dryer time line speculating that the Egyptian civilization never fell and he takes it up to the present.

It was more than I could handle in detail but it was an interesting scan. Along with Egypt the Roman Empire survives, there is no dark age, the Norse settle North America and the Creek Indians along with the Incas become modern nations.

The timeline is greatly accelerated with atomic weapons becoming available in the early 20th century.

If you didn&#039;t notice, he has this and other timelines at the bottom of the page.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>His timeline has the South winning by using their own slaves and runaways returning from the North to change the outcome. </p>
<p>This is followed by a backlash in the North resulting in expulsion of all Blacks from the USA and the creation of a new black republic out of Nova Scotia.</p>
<p>I just wouldn&#8217;t want to deal with, &#8220;yeah here&#8217;s another guy from the South aggrandizing the Confederacy and laying off on the North with some figment of another Southerner&#8217;s imagination.</p>
<p>It was interesting and that is all. I assign no value to anything he wrote down beyond complimenting him for his attention to detail. Anyone that questioned the motive for my interest would irk me no end. <img src='https://habitablezone.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I doubt that I would want to read it as fiction. I and you are probably unusual to have enjoyed reading it in it&#8217;s dry form.</p>
<p>On the site there is another even more lengthy (or it seemed so) and dryer time line speculating that the Egyptian civilization never fell and he takes it up to the present.</p>
<p>It was more than I could handle in detail but it was an interesting scan. Along with Egypt the Roman Empire survives, there is no dark age, the Norse settle North America and the Creek Indians along with the Incas become modern nations.</p>
<p>The timeline is greatly accelerated with atomic weapons becoming available in the early 20th century.</p>
<p>If you didn&#8217;t notice, he has this and other timelines at the bottom of the page.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/06/16/alternate-history/#comment-15929</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jun 2012 23:06:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.habitablezone.com/?p=17127#comment-15929</guid>
		<description>I found myself getting into it, and reading it over several sessions rather than just scanning it. It reads like I&#039;d imagine Harry Turtledove&#039;s notes would read. Which means that, if read as a story, it was dull as dirt, but the ideas it was playing with were interesting.

As a history, it seemed like Preston was shuffling the deck of OTL, but didn&#039;t stray far from it in the overall story arc. You can&#039;t judge alternate history like ordinary fiction--shuffling a given set of events would be considered unimaginative in most fiction. But in AH, it means he&#039;s of the schools of thought of the inevitability of the grand forces of history, and the Great Man school. For them, shuffling the deck is an expression of their beliefs, and I could see he took pride sometimes in making the two lines congruent.

I mean, &quot;Lorenz of Arabia&quot;????? That one&#039;s odd because it&#039;s another individual, which would mean that the forces of history acted to produce a similar Great Man in the same place at another time.

I can see why you liked it, Frank. The guy&#039;s outlines could be turned into an interesting saga. Controversial or offensive? I dunno...part of shuffling the deck is that you redistribute the fixed amount of general shittiness. Maybe a Texan would take offense at the episodes of ethnic cleansing. Nothing in it bothered me, anyway.

Thanks for recommending it.


&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:smaller;&quot;&gt;Edited the phrasing of my comparison to Turtledove&#039;s notes. It originally sounded like I was saying that his &lt;i&gt;writing&lt;/i&gt; is as dull as dirt. No, I love his work!&lt;/span&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I found myself getting into it, and reading it over several sessions rather than just scanning it. It reads like I&#8217;d imagine Harry Turtledove&#8217;s notes would read. Which means that, if read as a story, it was dull as dirt, but the ideas it was playing with were interesting.</p>
<p>As a history, it seemed like Preston was shuffling the deck of OTL, but didn&#8217;t stray far from it in the overall story arc. You can&#8217;t judge alternate history like ordinary fiction&#8211;shuffling a given set of events would be considered unimaginative in most fiction. But in AH, it means he&#8217;s of the schools of thought of the inevitability of the grand forces of history, and the Great Man school. For them, shuffling the deck is an expression of their beliefs, and I could see he took pride sometimes in making the two lines congruent.</p>
<p>I mean, &#8220;Lorenz of Arabia&#8221;????? That one&#8217;s odd because it&#8217;s another individual, which would mean that the forces of history acted to produce a similar Great Man in the same place at another time.</p>
<p>I can see why you liked it, Frank. The guy&#8217;s outlines could be turned into an interesting saga. Controversial or offensive? I dunno&#8230;part of shuffling the deck is that you redistribute the fixed amount of general shittiness. Maybe a Texan would take offense at the episodes of ethnic cleansing. Nothing in it bothered me, anyway.</p>
<p>Thanks for recommending it.</p>
<p><span style="font-size:smaller;">Edited the phrasing of my comparison to Turtledove&#8217;s notes. It originally sounded like I was saying that his <i>writing</i> is as dull as dirt. No, I love his work!</span></p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/06/16/alternate-history/#comment-15853</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Jun 2012 06:14:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.habitablezone.com/?p=17127#comment-15853</guid>
		<description>Alternate history is such a disciplined form of storytelling, and in that it&#039;s true to what I think of as &quot;real&quot; science fiction. I&#039;ve read the first chapter, and whoever wrote it clearly sweated blood working out the minutest details of the alternate Civil War. A bit dry, but good stuff. I plan to continue reading.

Seems to me that we&#039;re too easily buffaloed into moving threads to Flame. Gotta remember that a flame is out of place on any board except Flame. So somebody who has a bad reaction to your post here is out of line, unless proven otherwise. You don&#039;t have to anticipate the reactions. Relax, dude.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alternate history is such a disciplined form of storytelling, and in that it&#8217;s true to what I think of as &#8220;real&#8221; science fiction. I&#8217;ve read the first chapter, and whoever wrote it clearly sweated blood working out the minutest details of the alternate Civil War. A bit dry, but good stuff. I plan to continue reading.</p>
<p>Seems to me that we&#8217;re too easily buffaloed into moving threads to Flame. Gotta remember that a flame is out of place on any board except Flame. So somebody who has a bad reaction to your post here is out of line, unless proven otherwise. You don&#8217;t have to anticipate the reactions. Relax, dude.</p>
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