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	<title>Comments on: Thomas Ricks on the draft</title>
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	<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/07/10/thomas-ricks-on-the-draft/</link>
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		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/07/10/thomas-ricks-on-the-draft/#comment-16333</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2012 13:09:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=18078#comment-16333</guid>
		<description>Our Utopia needs slaves all right, but it doesn&#039;t need too many of them.  Those who are left over are just on their own.  They can&#039;t even be slaves if they want to.  After all, slaves at least get fed and housed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Our Utopia needs slaves all right, but it doesn&#8217;t need too many of them.  Those who are left over are just on their own.  They can&#8217;t even be slaves if they want to.  After all, slaves at least get fed and housed.</p>
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		<title>By: TB</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/07/10/thomas-ricks-on-the-draft/#comment-16329</link>
		<dc:creator>TB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2012 04:51:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=18078#comment-16329</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I was never in favor of the draft either, and the military seems to work damn well without it.&lt;/p&gt;

My original point was that the author&#039;s ideas are nuts.

Some of the problems you point out are just a few of the reasons why.

I do note in passing that no imagined Utopia has ever seemed to manage without a slave class, and his is no exception.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was never in favor of the draft either, and the military seems to work damn well without it.</p>
<p>My original point was that the author&#8217;s ideas are nuts.</p>
<p>Some of the problems you point out are just a few of the reasons why.</p>
<p>I do note in passing that no imagined Utopia has ever seemed to manage without a slave class, and his is no exception.</p>
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		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/07/10/thomas-ricks-on-the-draft/#comment-16328</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2012 04:23:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=18078#comment-16328</guid>
		<description>It was the conservatives who were all for it back near the end of the Vietnam era. I always felt if the people don&#039;t want to fight, they should accept the consequences of losing, especially since fighting and even dying is no guarantee you&#039;ll win.  

As for the other, I&#039;m all in favor of cutting loose all those rugged individualists who don&#039;t want to pay their fair share. The trouble with that idea is we don&#039;t live at the edge of a wilderness where they can go trapping for furs.  We live in a complex, interconnected society and even administering a two-tier citizenship structure like that would be impractical, if not impossible.

There is nothing new about Libertarianism, TB, they had it in the early 19th century.  In those days it was called Anarchism, and it not only rejected the idea of government, it rejected the idea of business as well.  Working for an owner/boss was considered just as oppressive as working for a government official or appointee. In fact, they made no distinction between the two. 

Under Anarchism, everybody would be self-employed.  In those industries where people had to work in groups with skilled managers in charge (like shipbuilding) then the model was the co-op, like some farmers have today. THere was no privately owned property, except for personal belongings. You could own your house, but not an apartment building. 

The Cuban mutual-aid societies that were common in Tampa during the early 20th century were set up that way, and they were very successful, in spite of vicious opposition from the Anglo businessmen who couldn&#039;t compete with them.  Managers were professionals hired or fired by the vote of the workers. Cubans didn&#039;t invent the system, it was originally from Europe.

But I doubt that model would work today.  Things are just too complex, and too interconnected.  Even corporations are collectivized, with ownership distibuted amongst stockholders who are often corporations themselves, and so on, and so on, and so on...

The corner lemonade stand isn&#039;t the model of free enterprise anymore. And a Libertarian, as I&#039;ve mentioned before, is just an Anarchist with property.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It was the conservatives who were all for it back near the end of the Vietnam era. I always felt if the people don&#8217;t want to fight, they should accept the consequences of losing, especially since fighting and even dying is no guarantee you&#8217;ll win.  </p>
<p>As for the other, I&#8217;m all in favor of cutting loose all those rugged individualists who don&#8217;t want to pay their fair share. The trouble with that idea is we don&#8217;t live at the edge of a wilderness where they can go trapping for furs.  We live in a complex, interconnected society and even administering a two-tier citizenship structure like that would be impractical, if not impossible.</p>
<p>There is nothing new about Libertarianism, TB, they had it in the early 19th century.  In those days it was called Anarchism, and it not only rejected the idea of government, it rejected the idea of business as well.  Working for an owner/boss was considered just as oppressive as working for a government official or appointee. In fact, they made no distinction between the two. </p>
<p>Under Anarchism, everybody would be self-employed.  In those industries where people had to work in groups with skilled managers in charge (like shipbuilding) then the model was the co-op, like some farmers have today. THere was no privately owned property, except for personal belongings. You could own your house, but not an apartment building. </p>
<p>The Cuban mutual-aid societies that were common in Tampa during the early 20th century were set up that way, and they were very successful, in spite of vicious opposition from the Anglo businessmen who couldn&#8217;t compete with them.  Managers were professionals hired or fired by the vote of the workers. Cubans didn&#8217;t invent the system, it was originally from Europe.</p>
<p>But I doubt that model would work today.  Things are just too complex, and too interconnected.  Even corporations are collectivized, with ownership distibuted amongst stockholders who are often corporations themselves, and so on, and so on, and so on&#8230;</p>
<p>The corner lemonade stand isn&#8217;t the model of free enterprise anymore. And a Libertarian, as I&#8217;ve mentioned before, is just an Anarchist with property.</p>
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		<title>By: TB</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/07/10/thomas-ricks-on-the-draft/#comment-16327</link>
		<dc:creator>TB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2012 03:56:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=18078#comment-16327</guid>
		<description>P.S.  There was no draft in Heinlein&#039;s book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P.S.  There was no draft in Heinlein&#8217;s book.</p>
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		<title>By: TB</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/07/10/thomas-ricks-on-the-draft/#comment-16325</link>
		<dc:creator>TB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2012 03:39:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=18078#comment-16325</guid>
		<description>Would they still pay the taxes for those services?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Would they still pay the taxes for those services?</p>
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		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/07/10/thomas-ricks-on-the-draft/#comment-16324</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2012 03:31:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=18078#comment-16324</guid>
		<description>&quot;And libertarians who object to a draft could opt out. Those who declined to help Uncle Sam would in return pledge to ask nothing from him — no Medicare, no subsidized college loans and no mortgage guarantees. Those who want minimal government can have it.&quot; 

I wouldn&#039;t let them vote, either.  Just like in Heinlein.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;And libertarians who object to a draft could opt out. Those who declined to help Uncle Sam would in return pledge to ask nothing from him — no Medicare, no subsidized college loans and no mortgage guarantees. Those who want minimal government can have it.&#8221; </p>
<p>I wouldn&#8217;t let them vote, either.  Just like in Heinlein.</p>
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