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	<title>Comments on: Fires, Pine Beatles, and Logging</title>
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		<title>By: podrock</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/08/15/fires-pine-beatles-and-logging/#comment-17450</link>
		<dc:creator>podrock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Aug 2012 17:53:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.net/?p=20176#comment-17450</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The Four-mile fire study &lt;/p&gt;can be found via this story from the local paper: 

http://www.dailycamera.com/boulder-county-news/ci_21155826

I agree about the clear cuts. There has been work done in Colorado to widen the cuts along power lines through the beetle kill areas. These vistos along the powerlines will hopefully provide fire breaks as well as to keep the dead trees from falling on the powerlines and starting fires in the first place.

I&#039;m trying to find the time to pull together references for the long story of forest management in the Rampart Range, where the recent Waldo Canyon fire destroyed so many homes. (I toured the neighborhood recently, and it was pretty amazing.) The story ranges from evidence for a huge fire, started by the Native Americans, 50 years prior to Zebulon Pike&#039;s expedition (1806), the clearcut logging of the 1890&#039;s, the public outcry over the logging in the early 1900&#039;s, the formation of the National Forests, the replanting of the forest as a depression era work program, and the decades of no real forest management leading to the Waldo Canyon Fire. 

Looking at how the Waldo Canyon Fire spread, it is evident that the two rock quarries (one reclaimed, the other operating) that sit on the western margin of Colorado Springs acted as two big fire breaks. These two quarries (mining limestone) that have long been labeled the &quot;scars on the mountain&quot; saved Colorado Springs from a bigger conflagration.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Four-mile fire study </p>
<p>can be found via this story from the local paper: </p>
<p><a href="http://www.dailycamera.com/boulder-county-news/ci_21155826" rel="nofollow">http://www.dailycamera.com/boulder-county-news/ci_21155826</a></p>
<p>I agree about the clear cuts. There has been work done in Colorado to widen the cuts along power lines through the beetle kill areas. These vistos along the powerlines will hopefully provide fire breaks as well as to keep the dead trees from falling on the powerlines and starting fires in the first place.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m trying to find the time to pull together references for the long story of forest management in the Rampart Range, where the recent Waldo Canyon fire destroyed so many homes. (I toured the neighborhood recently, and it was pretty amazing.) The story ranges from evidence for a huge fire, started by the Native Americans, 50 years prior to Zebulon Pike&#8217;s expedition (1806), the clearcut logging of the 1890&#8242;s, the public outcry over the logging in the early 1900&#8242;s, the formation of the National Forests, the replanting of the forest as a depression era work program, and the decades of no real forest management leading to the Waldo Canyon Fire. </p>
<p>Looking at how the Waldo Canyon Fire spread, it is evident that the two rock quarries (one reclaimed, the other operating) that sit on the western margin of Colorado Springs acted as two big fire breaks. These two quarries (mining limestone) that have long been labeled the &#8220;scars on the mountain&#8221; saved Colorado Springs from a bigger conflagration.</p>
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		<title>By: TB</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/08/15/fires-pine-beatles-and-logging/#comment-17448</link>
		<dc:creator>TB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Aug 2012 16:44:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.net/?p=20176#comment-17448</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;As with all environmental issues, this is a very complicated equation.&lt;/p&gt;

Stepping back for the big picture, it&#039;s obvious that fire is a natural event for forests, plains, and other bioregions that contain flammable material.  As podrock points out, since these environments have lasted many thousands of years, they obviously can deal with fires.  Or beetles, for that matter.

Fires mostly make trouble because they burn human stuff, or wood we&#039;d rather use for houses than have it just burn up.

There&#039;s a lot out there about how beetle-killed trees increase (or decrease) fire dangers.  I wonder if anyone is looking at how natural fires might keep down pine beetles.

The great redwoods in my area are supremely adapted to fire, fog, insects, and even floods.  You don&#039;t get to be a couple of thousand years old without having a few tricks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As with all environmental issues, this is a very complicated equation.</p>
<p>Stepping back for the big picture, it&#8217;s obvious that fire is a natural event for forests, plains, and other bioregions that contain flammable material.  As podrock points out, since these environments have lasted many thousands of years, they obviously can deal with fires.  Or beetles, for that matter.</p>
<p>Fires mostly make trouble because they burn human stuff, or wood we&#8217;d rather use for houses than have it just burn up.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a lot out there about how beetle-killed trees increase (or decrease) fire dangers.  I wonder if anyone is looking at how natural fires might keep down pine beetles.</p>
<p>The great redwoods in my area are supremely adapted to fire, fog, insects, and even floods.  You don&#8217;t get to be a couple of thousand years old without having a few tricks.</p>
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		<title>By: RobVG</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/08/15/fires-pine-beatles-and-logging/#comment-17447</link>
		<dc:creator>RobVG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Aug 2012 15:42:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.net/?p=20176#comment-17447</guid>
		<description>I looked for the study I cited but couldn&#039;t find it. But in searching, there was a myriad of competing opinions.

While not scientific, this guy&#039;s &quot;hobby&quot; shows some hard to refute photo evidence. 

http://westinstenv.org/sosf/2010/05/14/clearcuts-dont-burn/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I looked for the study I cited but couldn&#8217;t find it. But in searching, there was a myriad of competing opinions.</p>
<p>While not scientific, this guy&#8217;s &#8220;hobby&#8221; shows some hard to refute photo evidence. </p>
<p><a href="http://westinstenv.org/sosf/2010/05/14/clearcuts-dont-burn/" rel="nofollow">http://westinstenv.org/sosf/2010/05/14/clearcuts-dont-burn/</a></p>
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		<title>By: podrock</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/08/15/fires-pine-beatles-and-logging/#comment-17420</link>
		<dc:creator>podrock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 03:21:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.net/?p=20176#comment-17420</guid>
		<description>Recently, a report came out about the Four-Mile fire in Boulder County that destroyed 160 homes. The study showed that fire mitigation around structures help save homes; but, fire mitigation in the forests surrounding those homes only made the fire hotter and faster. It didn&#039;t help that piles of slash were left behind after the mitigation work.

Also, in another recent fire in the Front Range, the beetle killed trees did not burn as hot or as fast as the trees that had needles. Once the needles fall off the dead tree it just doesn&#039;t burn as well as a tree full of needles dried with drought and 100 degree temperatures.

Forests burn. It is part of the cycle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Recently, a report came out about the Four-Mile fire in Boulder County that destroyed 160 homes. The study showed that fire mitigation around structures help save homes; but, fire mitigation in the forests surrounding those homes only made the fire hotter and faster. It didn&#8217;t help that piles of slash were left behind after the mitigation work.</p>
<p>Also, in another recent fire in the Front Range, the beetle killed trees did not burn as hot or as fast as the trees that had needles. Once the needles fall off the dead tree it just doesn&#8217;t burn as well as a tree full of needles dried with drought and 100 degree temperatures.</p>
<p>Forests burn. It is part of the cycle.</p>
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		<title>By: Jody</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/08/15/fires-pine-beatles-and-logging/#comment-17419</link>
		<dc:creator>Jody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 01:12:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.net/?p=20176#comment-17419</guid>
		<description>And....&lt;img src=&quot;http://habitablezone.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/NorwegianWood1.jpg&quot; /&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And&#8230;.<img src="http://habitablezone.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/NorwegianWood1.jpg" /></p>
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		<title>By: TB</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/08/15/fires-pine-beatles-and-logging/#comment-17417</link>
		<dc:creator>TB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2012 23:48:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.net/?p=20176#comment-17417</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;A valid point...&lt;/p&gt;

But you can find a map of reservations &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.infoplease.com/images/indian9.gif&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here,&lt;/a&gt; and subtracting them isn&#039;t going to make that much difference in that huge blotch.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A valid point&#8230;</p>
<p>But you can find a map of reservations <a href="http://www.infoplease.com/images/indian9.gif" rel="nofollow">here,</a> and subtracting them isn&#8217;t going to make that much difference in that huge blotch.</p>
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		<title>By: alcaray</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/08/15/fires-pine-beatles-and-logging/#comment-17412</link>
		<dc:creator>alcaray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2012 18:44:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.net/?p=20176#comment-17412</guid>
		<description>Including Native American land in that graphic is very misleading.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Including Native American land in that graphic is very misleading.</p>
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		<title>By: TB</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/08/15/fires-pine-beatles-and-logging/#comment-17411</link>
		<dc:creator>TB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2012 18:36:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.net/?p=20176#comment-17411</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;A real world example of two ways of doing things: Pacific Lumber Company.&lt;/p&gt;

Same company, two owners.  Compare the business methods that created literally generations of profits and thriving communities, contrasted with a &quot;strip it and dump it&quot; philosophy that resulted in some short-term profits followed by bankruptcy.

It&#039;s pretty obvious which method made the most money overall, and put more good lumber into our country&#039;s building industries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A real world example of two ways of doing things: Pacific Lumber Company.</p>
<p>Same company, two owners.  Compare the business methods that created literally generations of profits and thriving communities, contrasted with a &#8220;strip it and dump it&#8221; philosophy that resulted in some short-term profits followed by bankruptcy.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s pretty obvious which method made the most money overall, and put more good lumber into our country&#8217;s building industries.</p>
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		<title>By: TB</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/08/15/fires-pine-beatles-and-logging/#comment-17410</link>
		<dc:creator>TB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2012 18:22:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.net/?p=20176#comment-17410</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&quot;Should the land be kept in reserve, for esthetic reasons, or be used to maximize human benefit?&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

I think there&#039;s plenty of room for both.  It&#039;s good to have areas kept as natural environments, with a minimum of development (trails, things like that).  It&#039;s also good to have forests that are properly managed for lumber but also serve as habitat for animals and recreation areas.

The Tragedy of the Commons can come in any time there&#039;s &quot;public&quot; land that is used for industry.  A man doesn&#039;t fish with dynamite unless it&#039;s somebody else&#039;s lake.

We have a long history of abuse in this area.  Resources leased for far less than true market prices (I&#039;m talking orders of magnitude).  Political pull short-circuiting protective measures.

I wouldn&#039;t mind seeing a lot of current Federal land being either privatized for real market prices to the industries that want to use them, or being set aside completely as wild or recreation land.

The government owns way too much real estate.  There&#039;s a lot of money tied up there that might be useful about now.

&lt;img src=&quot;http://www.nmland.com/images2/govtland.gif&quot; alt=&quot;&quot; /&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Should the land be kept in reserve, for esthetic reasons, or be used to maximize human benefit?&#8221;</p>
<p>I think there&#8217;s plenty of room for both.  It&#8217;s good to have areas kept as natural environments, with a minimum of development (trails, things like that).  It&#8217;s also good to have forests that are properly managed for lumber but also serve as habitat for animals and recreation areas.</p>
<p>The Tragedy of the Commons can come in any time there&#8217;s &#8220;public&#8221; land that is used for industry.  A man doesn&#8217;t fish with dynamite unless it&#8217;s somebody else&#8217;s lake.</p>
<p>We have a long history of abuse in this area.  Resources leased for far less than true market prices (I&#8217;m talking orders of magnitude).  Political pull short-circuiting protective measures.</p>
<p>I wouldn&#8217;t mind seeing a lot of current Federal land being either privatized for real market prices to the industries that want to use them, or being set aside completely as wild or recreation land.</p>
<p>The government owns way too much real estate.  There&#8217;s a lot of money tied up there that might be useful about now.</p>
<p><img src="http://www.nmland.com/images2/govtland.gif" alt="" /></p>
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		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/08/15/fires-pine-beatles-and-logging/#comment-17408</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2012 18:10:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.net/?p=20176#comment-17408</guid>
		<description>&quot;So, I lit a fire, isn&#039;t it good, Norwegian wood?&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;So, I lit a fire, isn&#8217;t it good, Norwegian wood?&#8221;</p>
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