Comments on: The Tonkin Gulf Incident https://habitablezone.com/2012/12/07/the-tonkin-gulf-incident/ Fri, 03 Apr 2026 22:41:18 -0700 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: ER https://habitablezone.com/2012/12/07/the-tonkin-gulf-incident/#comment-21572 ER Sun, 09 Dec 2012 16:19:47 +0000 http://habitablezone.com/?p=27691#comment-21572 Did you know that in WWII Japanese naval anti-aircraft munitions manufacturers incorporated colored dyes into their flak shells? The idea was that individual gun crews could instantly evaluate and correct their aim and range by identifying their gun's air bursts in a sky filled with exploding ordnance. What the hell, it is "Off-Topic", right? Did you know that in WWII Japanese naval anti-aircraft munitions manufacturers incorporated colored dyes into their flak shells? The idea was that individual gun crews could instantly evaluate and correct their aim and range by identifying their gun’s air bursts in a sky filled with exploding ordnance.

What the hell, it is “Off-Topic”, right?

]]> By: bowser https://habitablezone.com/2012/12/07/the-tonkin-gulf-incident/#comment-21567 bowser Sun, 09 Dec 2012 05:39:13 +0000 http://habitablezone.com/?p=27691#comment-21567 In the late '60s he would have carried a CAR-15, I don't know what in the early '60. Might have had a Thompson, probably an M-16.. The problem was that you wanted to carry an AK-47 but they sound different, so it would have gotten you shot. Tracer color would have been a problem, too. They had some pretty tracers, I even saw some purple ones I was told came from Bulgaria or Romania. In the late ’60s he would have carried a CAR-15, I don’t know what in the early ’60. Might have had a Thompson, probably an M-16.. The problem was that you wanted to carry an AK-47 but they sound different, so it would have gotten you shot. Tracer color would have been a problem, too. They had some pretty tracers, I even saw some purple ones I was told came from Bulgaria or Romania.

]]> By: ER https://habitablezone.com/2012/12/07/the-tonkin-gulf-incident/#comment-21558 ER Sun, 09 Dec 2012 03:26:00 +0000 http://habitablezone.com/?p=27691#comment-21558 It looks a little like a variant of the old German Schmeisser machine pistol, or it might be some Eastern Bloc weapon captured from the VC (the AK-47 armed NVA would not have been around when Ellsberg was there). The Czechs, in particular, used to make some really nice weapons, they were issued to the Cuban Milicianos by Fidel. I'll have to ask my cousin about it, he may have had one just like it in his house. The VC were armed with all sorts of hand-me-downs, even gear they captured from the French. Not being a real GI, but a civilian, yet familiar with firearms, Ellsberg may have had the freedom to choose not to pack an M-14 (too heavy) or an M-16 (too unreliable). It looks a little like a variant of the old German Schmeisser machine pistol, or it might be some Eastern Bloc weapon captured from the VC (the AK-47 armed NVA would not have been around when Ellsberg was there). The Czechs, in particular, used to make some really nice weapons, they were issued to the Cuban Milicianos by Fidel. I’ll have to ask my cousin about it, he may have had one just like it in his house. The VC were armed with all sorts of hand-me-downs, even gear they captured from the French.

Not being a real GI, but a civilian, yet familiar with firearms, Ellsberg may have had the freedom to choose not to pack an M-14 (too heavy) or an M-16 (too unreliable).

]]> By: bowser https://habitablezone.com/2012/12/07/the-tonkin-gulf-incident/#comment-21553 bowser Sun, 09 Dec 2012 00:24:18 +0000 http://habitablezone.com/?p=27691#comment-21553 I have to say I don't remember seeing one. The stock is folded up almost to the magazine, the magazine is either .45ACP or 9mm, and it's just a cheap stamped weapon. The ports in the barrel lead me to think it would be a .45. they tend to climb faster than an F-22 in an auto mode. Here's a similar idea, not the same weapon. http://world.guns.ru/smg/dk/madsen-m46-m50-m53-e.html Or maybe this:The Carl Gustav M45 is a series of Swedish blowback operated, automatic sub-machine-guns first produced in 1945 and adopted as the standard weapon of the Swedish Armed Forces, and also sold to Egypt, Indonesia and Ireland. The guns are chambered for the 9 mm Parabellum cartridge and have a rate of fire of 600 rounds-per-minute with a muzzle velocity of 365 meters-per-second and an effective range of 200 meters. The original M45 took a Suomi 50-round box magazine, the B variant (Carl Gustav M45B) introduced in 1948 changed the magazine for a double-stack magazine with a capacity of 36-rounds which proved so reliable it has been widely copied in other weapons. The C variant has a bayonet lug and the E variant is selective single-shot or automatic. A silenced variant was also made and used by US Special Forces in South-East Asia. http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/browse/FMC.HTM I have to say I don’t remember seeing one. The stock is folded up almost to the magazine, the magazine is either .45ACP or 9mm, and it’s just a cheap stamped weapon. The ports in the barrel lead me to think it would be a .45. they tend to climb faster than an F-22 in an auto mode.

Here’s a similar idea, not the same weapon.

http://world.guns.ru/smg/dk/madsen-m46-m50-m53-e.html

Or maybe this:The Carl Gustav M45 is a series of Swedish blowback operated, automatic sub-machine-guns first produced in 1945 and adopted as the standard weapon of the Swedish Armed Forces, and also sold to Egypt, Indonesia and Ireland. The guns are chambered for the 9 mm Parabellum cartridge and have a rate of fire of 600 rounds-per-minute with a muzzle velocity of 365 meters-per-second and an effective range of 200 meters. The original M45 took a Suomi 50-round box magazine, the B variant (Carl Gustav M45B) introduced in 1948 changed the magazine for a double-stack magazine with a capacity of 36-rounds which proved so reliable it has been widely copied in other weapons. The C variant has a bayonet lug and the E variant is selective single-shot or automatic. A silenced variant was also made and used by US Special Forces in South-East Asia.
http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/browse/FMC.HTM

]]> By: ER https://habitablezone.com/2012/12/07/the-tonkin-gulf-incident/#comment-21536 ER Sat, 08 Dec 2012 15:18:34 +0000 http://habitablezone.com/?p=27691#comment-21536 After I wrote my little essay, I read the Wikipedia article on the Tonkin Gulf Incident..which led me in turn to a little more digging... Now I know why Daniel Ellsberg went from gung-ho pro war to Pentagon Papers activist, and how he wound up on Richard Nixon's shit list. Ellsberg was a Marine Corps veteran, an officer in charge of rifle platoons and commanding an infantry company in the late 50s, but his service in Vietnam was as a civilian military analyst evaluating the pacification program. His duties required him to go on patrol with combat units. <img src="http://aom99.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/0000bild7.jpg" alt="Ellsberg in Viet Nam" /> After I wrote my little essay, I read the Wikipedia article on the Tonkin Gulf Incident..which led me in turn to a little more digging…

Now I know why Daniel Ellsberg went from gung-ho pro war to Pentagon Papers activist, and how he wound up on Richard Nixon’s shit list.

Ellsberg was a Marine Corps veteran, an officer in charge of rifle platoons and commanding an infantry company in the late 50s, but his service in Vietnam was as a civilian military analyst evaluating the pacification program. His duties required him to go on patrol with combat units.

Ellsberg in Viet Nam

]]> By: bowser https://habitablezone.com/2012/12/07/the-tonkin-gulf-incident/#comment-21529 bowser Sat, 08 Dec 2012 04:48:14 +0000 http://habitablezone.com/?p=27691#comment-21529 The Cast: My friend, about 5, playing under the table where the "men" were having their pre-Thanksgiving Dinner drinks. Glenn Jackson's grandson. Wayne Morse, Senator from Oregon. Mark Hatfield, Governor of Oregon, future Senator. Glenn Jackson, the political power in Oregon, behind the scenes, nothing got done without him. The boy remembers there being an argument, with Wayne Morse holding that the Gulf of Tonkin affair did not happen, was created by Johnson as an excuse to broaden US involvement in the war. Mark Hatfield and Glenn Jackson insisting that it must have happened, Johnson wouldn't lead the nation down that road without reason. The next election Bob Packwood beat Morse largely over Morse's opposition to the war in Vietnam. We should have learned from that, our political leaders will sell us out, will lie, cheat and steal to get us into war, and yet there's Iraq. Same nonsense, different political party. None of them can be trusted, none of them can be believed, and yet some people still insist, for example, that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice didn't lie. I think we all realize Johnson was a scoundrel. The Cast: My friend, about 5, playing under the table where the “men” were having their pre-Thanksgiving Dinner drinks. Glenn Jackson’s grandson.

Wayne Morse, Senator from Oregon.

Mark Hatfield, Governor of Oregon, future Senator.

Glenn Jackson, the political power in Oregon, behind the scenes, nothing got done without him.

The boy remembers there being an argument, with Wayne Morse holding that the Gulf of Tonkin affair did not happen, was created by Johnson as an excuse to broaden US involvement in the war.

Mark Hatfield and Glenn Jackson insisting that it must have happened, Johnson wouldn’t lead the nation down that road without reason.

The next election Bob Packwood beat Morse largely over Morse’s opposition to the war in Vietnam.

We should have learned from that, our political leaders will sell us out, will lie, cheat and steal to get us into war, and yet there’s Iraq. Same nonsense, different political party.

None of them can be trusted, none of them can be believed, and yet some people still insist, for example, that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice didn’t lie. I think we all realize Johnson was a scoundrel.

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