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	<title>Comments on: Thinking the unthinkable</title>
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		<title>By: TB</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/12/15/thinking-the-unthinkable/#comment-22167</link>
		<dc:creator>TB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Dec 2012 15:23:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=28248#comment-22167</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Another personal story along this same line,&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;a href=&quot;http://rexharrisonshat.com/jack.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Here.&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another personal story along this same line,</p>
<p><a href="http://rexharrisonshat.com/jack.html" rel="nofollow">Here.</a></p>
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		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/12/15/thinking-the-unthinkable/#comment-21899</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2012 02:55:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=28248#comment-21899</guid>
		<description>When I saw the film &quot;Jaws&quot; in Florida, when it first came out, there was a guy in the theater behind my seat making a running commentary to one of his friends.  

When the big fish swam past the boat, I could hear him say, &quot;Sheeit, if I had my thirty-ought- six I&#039;d just waste that sonofabitch.&quot;  This is what I mean by &quot;gun culture&quot;:  The thought that every problem can be resolved with a bullet, and if you have a gun you &quot;don&#039;t have to put up with no shit&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I saw the film &#8220;Jaws&#8221; in Florida, when it first came out, there was a guy in the theater behind my seat making a running commentary to one of his friends.  </p>
<p>When the big fish swam past the boat, I could hear him say, &#8220;Sheeit, if I had my thirty-ought- six I&#8217;d just waste that sonofabitch.&#8221;  This is what I mean by &#8220;gun culture&#8221;:  The thought that every problem can be resolved with a bullet, and if you have a gun you &#8220;don&#8217;t have to put up with no shit&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: RobVG</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/12/15/thinking-the-unthinkable/#comment-21883</link>
		<dc:creator>RobVG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2012 00:05:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=28248#comment-21883</guid>
		<description>Injuries do count. 

&quot;Finding out what makes us different&quot;.

There is a true and succinct  answer to the question but getting to the stats is frustrating. When you do a little cross-checking you find large variances. And when your looking at one stat you&#039;re reminded of how many are intertwined in the equation.

When I read your post I instantly want to compare gun injuries to other sources of injury. And looking at 52,000 injuries compared to an estimated 70-80 million gun owners  puts a different angle on it.

One can&#039;t deny that the gun culture has alot to do with it, but are our problems the sole result of gun ownership? No. That&#039;s because you also can&#039;t deny there are many other factors.To be clear I&#039;m stating the obvious and I&#039;m not saying you&#039;re ignoring it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Injuries do count. </p>
<p>&#8220;Finding out what makes us different&#8221;.</p>
<p>There is a true and succinct  answer to the question but getting to the stats is frustrating. When you do a little cross-checking you find large variances. And when your looking at one stat you&#8217;re reminded of how many are intertwined in the equation.</p>
<p>When I read your post I instantly want to compare gun injuries to other sources of injury. And looking at 52,000 injuries compared to an estimated 70-80 million gun owners  puts a different angle on it.</p>
<p>One can&#8217;t deny that the gun culture has alot to do with it, but are our problems the sole result of gun ownership? No. That&#8217;s because you also can&#8217;t deny there are many other factors.To be clear I&#8217;m stating the obvious and I&#8217;m not saying you&#8217;re ignoring it.</p>
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		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/12/15/thinking-the-unthinkable/#comment-21864</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2012 17:39:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=28248#comment-21864</guid>
		<description>The number I listed was total gun deaths, including suicides and accidents. And it varies from year to year. And remember, most people shot do survive, our doctors are getting really good at treating gunshot trauma.  They get lots of practice.

There&#039;s a lot of ways to slice this data pie, but no matter how you do, the number is way too high.  See for yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States

&lt;blockquote&gt;
&quot;In 2009, according to the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, 66.9% of all homicides in the United States were perpetrated using a firearm. There were 52,447 deliberate and 23,237 accidental non-fatal gunshot injuries in the United States during 2000. The majority of gun-related deaths in the United States are suicides, with 17,352 (55.6%) of the total 31,224 firearm-related deaths in 2007 due to suicide, while 12,632 (40.5%) were homicide deaths.&quot;

...


&quot;Gun-related death rates in the United States are eight times higher than they are in countries that are economically and politically similar to it.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

So what it is about us that makes us different?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The number I listed was total gun deaths, including suicides and accidents. And it varies from year to year. And remember, most people shot do survive, our doctors are getting really good at treating gunshot trauma.  They get lots of practice.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a lot of ways to slice this data pie, but no matter how you do, the number is way too high.  See for yourself:</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States</a></p>
<blockquote><p>
&#8220;In 2009, according to the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, 66.9% of all homicides in the United States were perpetrated using a firearm. There were 52,447 deliberate and 23,237 accidental non-fatal gunshot injuries in the United States during 2000. The majority of gun-related deaths in the United States are suicides, with 17,352 (55.6%) of the total 31,224 firearm-related deaths in 2007 due to suicide, while 12,632 (40.5%) were homicide deaths.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8220;Gun-related death rates in the United States are eight times higher than they are in countries that are economically and politically similar to it.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>So what it is about us that makes us different?</p>
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		<title>By: RobVG</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/12/15/thinking-the-unthinkable/#comment-21862</link>
		<dc:creator>RobVG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2012 16:50:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=28248#comment-21862</guid>
		<description>27,000 people lost to this &quot;plague&quot;? I think that number is greater than the total number of homicides in the US n/t</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>27,000 people lost to this &#8220;plague&#8221;? I think that number is greater than the total number of homicides in the US n/t</p>
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		<title>By: Jody</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/12/15/thinking-the-unthinkable/#comment-21861</link>
		<dc:creator>Jody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2012 16:11:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=28248#comment-21861</guid>
		<description>From where I observe...criminals &lt;i&gt;are&lt;/i&gt; mad men. The insatiable need for money and power is mad. 

I do not use that term *mad* lightly.

Actually your post proved my point.

Guns are a symptom. Just like aardvark venom if it happened to be the weapon of choice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From where I observe&#8230;criminals <i>are</i> mad men. The insatiable need for money and power is mad. </p>
<p>I do not use that term *mad* lightly.</p>
<p>Actually your post proved my point.</p>
<p>Guns are a symptom. Just like aardvark venom if it happened to be the weapon of choice.</p>
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		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/12/15/thinking-the-unthinkable/#comment-21860</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2012 13:15:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=28248#comment-21860</guid>
		<description>Madmen don&#039;t kill people.

Madmen with guns kill people.  Sure, they may find other ways to kill people, but guns make it easy, and the numbers of victims and the severity of their wounds greater. Before there were guns you needed to totally surprise, or physically overwhelm an opponent to kill him, or you needed the help of others. You don&#039;t need to be crazy. Now anybody with a gun can kill anyone he likes, even the President of the United States, or a classroom full of kindergartener, or a stranger on the street who dissed him.

No, it&#039;s not just madmen.  Criminals who are not mad find it easier to do their work with guns, and more people die as a result. Guns kill people in domestic arguments where their absence would almost always have saved a life.  Vehicles are inherently dangerous, but road rage is much deadlier when guns
are readily available.

People die from gun accidents too, although people die from accidents with many other tools, so perhaps pointing that out is unfair.  But gun accidents seem so often to involve children. Children, after all, are more likely to have accidents, and they are so fascinated by guns...

No, guns aren&#039;t the &lt;em&gt;whole&lt;/em&gt; problem, but the cheap and available firearm, particularly the high capacity, concealable weapon, is a very great part of the problem, and it is a part we can do something about. People will die by gunshot no matter what we do, just like they die in chain saw accidents, or airline crashes, or on the athletic field,  but do we really need to lose 27,000 people every year to this plague? That&#039;s a Vietnam worth of deaths every other year. It&#039;s not just the occasional schoolhouse mass murder, people are dying by the dozens for no good reason every day of the year of gun related homicide, suicide and  accident.

And what stops us from doing something? That&#039;s the easiest question to answer.  There are two reasons we have a gun problem. 

First, because too many men are little boys who love to play with guns and fantasize about killing people.  For most, nothing bad ever comes of it, but the odds catch up to us eventually; we are a big country and we have lots of cheap guns.  All that talk about constitutional amendments and freedom, and protecting the home, and right to bear arms is just a cover for the childish fascination about being able to kill at a distance, without risk, the power of the gods.  It&#039;s a perversion. I know that for a fact because I recognize it in myself.  Unfortunately, most men are not prone to introspection, and most men are too cowardly to admit their perversions to themselves. 

Second, a very profitable industry has arisen to feed this perversion, a business with as little conscience as the drug cartels of Mexico or the tobacco industry, and they will do anything in the way of political arm-twisting and propaganda to continue operating with as little restriction and control as possible. They know that any measures taken to cut back on gun deaths will result in an inconvenience for them, in the only way that really matters to them, it will cut into their profits. It really is that simple.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Madmen don&#8217;t kill people.</p>
<p>Madmen with guns kill people.  Sure, they may find other ways to kill people, but guns make it easy, and the numbers of victims and the severity of their wounds greater. Before there were guns you needed to totally surprise, or physically overwhelm an opponent to kill him, or you needed the help of others. You don&#8217;t need to be crazy. Now anybody with a gun can kill anyone he likes, even the President of the United States, or a classroom full of kindergartener, or a stranger on the street who dissed him.</p>
<p>No, it&#8217;s not just madmen.  Criminals who are not mad find it easier to do their work with guns, and more people die as a result. Guns kill people in domestic arguments where their absence would almost always have saved a life.  Vehicles are inherently dangerous, but road rage is much deadlier when guns<br />
are readily available.</p>
<p>People die from gun accidents too, although people die from accidents with many other tools, so perhaps pointing that out is unfair.  But gun accidents seem so often to involve children. Children, after all, are more likely to have accidents, and they are so fascinated by guns&#8230;</p>
<p>No, guns aren&#8217;t the <em>whole</em> problem, but the cheap and available firearm, particularly the high capacity, concealable weapon, is a very great part of the problem, and it is a part we can do something about. People will die by gunshot no matter what we do, just like they die in chain saw accidents, or airline crashes, or on the athletic field,  but do we really need to lose 27,000 people every year to this plague? That&#8217;s a Vietnam worth of deaths every other year. It&#8217;s not just the occasional schoolhouse mass murder, people are dying by the dozens for no good reason every day of the year of gun related homicide, suicide and  accident.</p>
<p>And what stops us from doing something? That&#8217;s the easiest question to answer.  There are two reasons we have a gun problem. </p>
<p>First, because too many men are little boys who love to play with guns and fantasize about killing people.  For most, nothing bad ever comes of it, but the odds catch up to us eventually; we are a big country and we have lots of cheap guns.  All that talk about constitutional amendments and freedom, and protecting the home, and right to bear arms is just a cover for the childish fascination about being able to kill at a distance, without risk, the power of the gods.  It&#8217;s a perversion. I know that for a fact because I recognize it in myself.  Unfortunately, most men are not prone to introspection, and most men are too cowardly to admit their perversions to themselves. </p>
<p>Second, a very profitable industry has arisen to feed this perversion, a business with as little conscience as the drug cartels of Mexico or the tobacco industry, and they will do anything in the way of political arm-twisting and propaganda to continue operating with as little restriction and control as possible. They know that any measures taken to cut back on gun deaths will result in an inconvenience for them, in the only way that really matters to them, it will cut into their profits. It really is that simple.</p>
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		<title>By: Jody</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/12/15/thinking-the-unthinkable/#comment-21833</link>
		<dc:creator>Jody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2012 22:34:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=28248#comment-21833</guid>
		<description>Actually Tom...and boy am I gonna get a lot of flack for saying this...and note, I will never own a gun...To me, guns are not the issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually Tom&#8230;and boy am I gonna get a lot of flack for saying this&#8230;and note, I will never own a gun&#8230;To me, guns are not the issue.</p>
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		<title>By: TB</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/12/15/thinking-the-unthinkable/#comment-21828</link>
		<dc:creator>TB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2012 21:36:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=28248#comment-21828</guid>
		<description>The mother of the school shooter possessed a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.lowtechcombat.com/2010/12/50-year-trends-in-violent-crime-in-us.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;large collection of legally-registered guns.&lt;/a&gt;  She trained her son in their use.  The killings at the school were done with a semi-automatic rifle.

Her son had known mental issues.

He attempted to buy weapons, and was turned down.  But he knew where to find them.

Unfortunately, his mother was not the only one to suffer from creating this situation.

The emphasis now seems to be solely on availability of guns.  Nobody is discussing many other things that could also be issues.  Glorification of violence in our entertainment.  Neutralization of moral authority in our culture.  Just to name two.  I&#039;m not saying these things should be harshly cracked down on any more than gun access, but there&#039;s a lot of space outside the &quot;gun&quot; box that is open for discussion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The mother of the school shooter possessed a <a href="http://www.lowtechcombat.com/2010/12/50-year-trends-in-violent-crime-in-us.html" rel="nofollow">large collection of legally-registered guns.</a>  She trained her son in their use.  The killings at the school were done with a semi-automatic rifle.</p>
<p>Her son had known mental issues.</p>
<p>He attempted to buy weapons, and was turned down.  But he knew where to find them.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, his mother was not the only one to suffer from creating this situation.</p>
<p>The emphasis now seems to be solely on availability of guns.  Nobody is discussing many other things that could also be issues.  Glorification of violence in our entertainment.  Neutralization of moral authority in our culture.  Just to name two.  I&#8217;m not saying these things should be harshly cracked down on any more than gun access, but there&#8217;s a lot of space outside the &#8220;gun&#8221; box that is open for discussion.</p>
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		<title>By: MaryAnne</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2012/12/15/thinking-the-unthinkable/#comment-21817</link>
		<dc:creator>MaryAnne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2012 16:13:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=28248#comment-21817</guid>
		<description>Bowser has pointed out, and I can back him up, that it&#039;s dreadfully difficult to get someone with a mental illness into treatment if he or she doesn&#039;t want to go. This mom only has the authority until her son is 18. Then he can refuse, and there&#039;s nothing that can be done about it unless and until he demonstrates that he&#039;s a threat to himself or others. She can also get a restraining order, but that cuts both ways: if he&#039;s not allowed to come close to her, she is not supposed to go near him either.

Furthermore, once someone is committed involuntarily, he or she is entitled to a visit from a patients&#039; rights rep. This is a necessary activity to prevent relatives from putting away an inconvenient relative, or from gaining control of a wealthy but emotionally frail relative&#039;s estate. Except in the case of the truly delusional or the stupid mentally ill person, the patient can figure out how to answer the rep&#039;s questions after the 30-day involuntary commitment period in order to be released even if more treatment is needed.

It&#039;s a terrible problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bowser has pointed out, and I can back him up, that it&#8217;s dreadfully difficult to get someone with a mental illness into treatment if he or she doesn&#8217;t want to go. This mom only has the authority until her son is 18. Then he can refuse, and there&#8217;s nothing that can be done about it unless and until he demonstrates that he&#8217;s a threat to himself or others. She can also get a restraining order, but that cuts both ways: if he&#8217;s not allowed to come close to her, she is not supposed to go near him either.</p>
<p>Furthermore, once someone is committed involuntarily, he or she is entitled to a visit from a patients&#8217; rights rep. This is a necessary activity to prevent relatives from putting away an inconvenient relative, or from gaining control of a wealthy but emotionally frail relative&#8217;s estate. Except in the case of the truly delusional or the stupid mentally ill person, the patient can figure out how to answer the rep&#8217;s questions after the 30-day involuntary commitment period in order to be released even if more treatment is needed.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a terrible problem.</p>
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