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	<title>Comments on: The Economic Argument is Over&#8212;</title>
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	<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/04/26/the-economic-argument-is-over/</link>
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		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/04/26/the-economic-argument-is-over/#comment-23597</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 May 2013 19:04:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=31577#comment-23597</guid>
		<description>One of the reasons health care has always had such a high priority with liberals is that our exploding health care costs actually contribute to our economic woes.  It&#039;s no coincidence that in an economy in trouble, health care costs continue to increase, and profits for the health care industry continue to rise. No one benefitting from the present system has any incentive in seeing it change.

Controlling health care costs is a goal of so-called &quot;socialized medicine&quot;, a goal that the free market seems either unable or unwilling to embrace.  Reducing those costs, and shifting some of them to the overall tax burden would make it easier for the average person to afford health care, and easier for employers to provide it for their workers.  Either way, that will make us more competitive with other countries. 

Every civilized country in the world does this, the fact we are the only one that bitterly resists it cannot be swept under the rug any longer, or cavalierly dismissed as the first step down a slippery slope to Communist enslavement. That is utter bilge. Neither can we dismiss or ignore the statistics that continue to show us falling further and further behind other nations in our overall national health, such as life expectancy and neonatal survival rates.

Oh sure, our health care is second to none, but only for those who can afford it.  The alternative is that people (especially the poor, minorities or the aged)either will get sick, die or face bankruptcy when they don&#039;t have to, or their care will simply be shifted onto emergency rooms.  None of these options is cost-effective in the long run to the society as a whole. 

Government involvement in health care is not without problems, and pointing them out is legitimate and necessary. We need public involvement and debate, from the medical professions, the public, the industry and insurers.  And yes, there will be high costs, inefficiency, waste, and downright fraud.  But can defenders of a laissez-faire health system claim their way is free of any of these drawbacks?  Isn&#039;t having market forces culling our excess population just as reprehensible (and much more likely) than the dreaded &quot;death panels&quot;. And can we tolerate any further the reasoning that I suspect really drives opposition to any form of government involvement at all?  

&lt;em&gt;&quot;I can afford health insurance.  Why should I be taxed to help take care of those who can&#039;t?&quot;&lt;/em&gt;

The same perverse argument could be made for every  other function of government; most of us pay school taxes even after our kids grow up, or even if we have no kids at all. We owe it to our country, and to our fellow citizens, particularly those most unfortunate among us. Its the patriotic thing to do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the reasons health care has always had such a high priority with liberals is that our exploding health care costs actually contribute to our economic woes.  It&#8217;s no coincidence that in an economy in trouble, health care costs continue to increase, and profits for the health care industry continue to rise. No one benefitting from the present system has any incentive in seeing it change.</p>
<p>Controlling health care costs is a goal of so-called &#8220;socialized medicine&#8221;, a goal that the free market seems either unable or unwilling to embrace.  Reducing those costs, and shifting some of them to the overall tax burden would make it easier for the average person to afford health care, and easier for employers to provide it for their workers.  Either way, that will make us more competitive with other countries. </p>
<p>Every civilized country in the world does this, the fact we are the only one that bitterly resists it cannot be swept under the rug any longer, or cavalierly dismissed as the first step down a slippery slope to Communist enslavement. That is utter bilge. Neither can we dismiss or ignore the statistics that continue to show us falling further and further behind other nations in our overall national health, such as life expectancy and neonatal survival rates.</p>
<p>Oh sure, our health care is second to none, but only for those who can afford it.  The alternative is that people (especially the poor, minorities or the aged)either will get sick, die or face bankruptcy when they don&#8217;t have to, or their care will simply be shifted onto emergency rooms.  None of these options is cost-effective in the long run to the society as a whole. </p>
<p>Government involvement in health care is not without problems, and pointing them out is legitimate and necessary. We need public involvement and debate, from the medical professions, the public, the industry and insurers.  And yes, there will be high costs, inefficiency, waste, and downright fraud.  But can defenders of a laissez-faire health system claim their way is free of any of these drawbacks?  Isn&#8217;t having market forces culling our excess population just as reprehensible (and much more likely) than the dreaded &#8220;death panels&#8221;. And can we tolerate any further the reasoning that I suspect really drives opposition to any form of government involvement at all?  </p>
<p><em>&#8220;I can afford health insurance.  Why should I be taxed to help take care of those who can&#8217;t?&#8221;</em></p>
<p>The same perverse argument could be made for every  other function of government; most of us pay school taxes even after our kids grow up, or even if we have no kids at all. We owe it to our country, and to our fellow citizens, particularly those most unfortunate among us. Its the patriotic thing to do.</p>
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		<title>By: BuckGalaxy</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/04/26/the-economic-argument-is-over/#comment-23581</link>
		<dc:creator>BuckGalaxy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 May 2013 02:51:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=31577#comment-23581</guid>
		<description>Cutting spending during a recession is bad economic policy, and there&#039;s 70 years of history to prove it.  Improving the healthcare system in America is a once in a generation opportunity.  You take it when you get it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cutting spending during a recession is bad economic policy, and there&#8217;s 70 years of history to prove it.  Improving the healthcare system in America is a once in a generation opportunity.  You take it when you get it.</p>
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		<title>By: RobVG</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/04/26/the-economic-argument-is-over/#comment-23534</link>
		<dc:creator>RobVG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Apr 2013 14:18:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=31577#comment-23534</guid>
		<description>I never supported the cuts. They made as much sense as overhauling the health care system while we were in the depths of the recession. n/t</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I never supported the cuts. They made as much sense as overhauling the health care system while we were in the depths of the recession. n/t</p>
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		<title>By: bowser</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/04/26/the-economic-argument-is-over/#comment-23533</link>
		<dc:creator>bowser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Apr 2013 13:26:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=31577#comment-23533</guid>
		<description>And it&#039;s pathologically impossible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And it&#8217;s pathologically impossible.</p>
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		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/04/26/the-economic-argument-is-over/#comment-23524</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Apr 2013 17:23:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=31577#comment-23524</guid>
		<description>That is just as much printing money as what the government does, and it invariably leads to economic catastrophes.  Oh sure, you can argue that printing money so people can invest in real future productive capacity is a good thing, but when you start using IOUs as collateral for more borrowing, so you can lend it to other banks, so THEY can use it as collateral, and so on, the system is obviously out of control.

I&#039;m starting to wonder if the whole concept of &quot;money&quot; is a fraud.  Everybody is in debt, countries, companies, consumers, banks, everybody.  And everybody is cashing in on the party. People have mortgages, car payments and credit card debt. I&#039;ve never heard of any government anywhere ever being in the black.  (We have had an occasional budget surplus, but we&#039;ve always had a national debt.) No company, even highly profitable ones, uses its cash reserves to finance expansion, they always borrow money. And the financial experts tell us we should not pay off our mortgages, but take advantage of the low interest rate and invest our spare cash instead.  &quot;You can always re-finance.&quot; Sure, they collect their vigorish off the top, and promptly lend that out to someone else. &lt;em&gt;Of course&lt;/em&gt; that&#039;s what they are going to counsel you to do. And like the greedy chumps we are, we fall for it.

Gold, currency, checks, bank ledger entries, digital data transfers in remote computers...none of this is real.  Its all symbolic.  I&#039;m not saying we should deliberately go into debt.  But haven&#039;t you noticed that everybody who is &quot;rich&quot; owes more money than they&#039;ve got.  I&#039;ve never declared bankruptcy, I&#039;m totally out of debt, and I&#039;ve got money in the bank: Donald Trump can&#039;t say that, but I&#039;m better looking than he is and his wife is better looking than mine.

And who is all this inflated debt OWED to, anyway?  What can they possibly do with all that phony money, besides loan it to someone else? By definition, it exceeds the total value of everything in the world; its all been &quot;printed&quot;, it&#039;s not &quot;real&quot;.  So what do we do, go onto the gold standard?  Gold is a metal with only limited industrial uses.  It&#039;s intrinsically worth a great deal less than copper. It is no different from a banknote, its just harder to carry around in your pocket.

The only things of real value are earth resources  which can be potentially converted to real goods and services that can satisfy real human needs and desires, and the human labor that makes that conversion possible.  Matter and energy. Everything else is just bookkeeping. Little marks on paper that don&#039;t mean shit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is just as much printing money as what the government does, and it invariably leads to economic catastrophes.  Oh sure, you can argue that printing money so people can invest in real future productive capacity is a good thing, but when you start using IOUs as collateral for more borrowing, so you can lend it to other banks, so THEY can use it as collateral, and so on, the system is obviously out of control.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m starting to wonder if the whole concept of &#8220;money&#8221; is a fraud.  Everybody is in debt, countries, companies, consumers, banks, everybody.  And everybody is cashing in on the party. People have mortgages, car payments and credit card debt. I&#8217;ve never heard of any government anywhere ever being in the black.  (We have had an occasional budget surplus, but we&#8217;ve always had a national debt.) No company, even highly profitable ones, uses its cash reserves to finance expansion, they always borrow money. And the financial experts tell us we should not pay off our mortgages, but take advantage of the low interest rate and invest our spare cash instead.  &#8220;You can always re-finance.&#8221; Sure, they collect their vigorish off the top, and promptly lend that out to someone else. <em>Of course</em> that&#8217;s what they are going to counsel you to do. And like the greedy chumps we are, we fall for it.</p>
<p>Gold, currency, checks, bank ledger entries, digital data transfers in remote computers&#8230;none of this is real.  Its all symbolic.  I&#8217;m not saying we should deliberately go into debt.  But haven&#8217;t you noticed that everybody who is &#8220;rich&#8221; owes more money than they&#8217;ve got.  I&#8217;ve never declared bankruptcy, I&#8217;m totally out of debt, and I&#8217;ve got money in the bank: Donald Trump can&#8217;t say that, but I&#8217;m better looking than he is and his wife is better looking than mine.</p>
<p>And who is all this inflated debt OWED to, anyway?  What can they possibly do with all that phony money, besides loan it to someone else? By definition, it exceeds the total value of everything in the world; its all been &#8220;printed&#8221;, it&#8217;s not &#8220;real&#8221;.  So what do we do, go onto the gold standard?  Gold is a metal with only limited industrial uses.  It&#8217;s intrinsically worth a great deal less than copper. It is no different from a banknote, its just harder to carry around in your pocket.</p>
<p>The only things of real value are earth resources  which can be potentially converted to real goods and services that can satisfy real human needs and desires, and the human labor that makes that conversion possible.  Matter and energy. Everything else is just bookkeeping. Little marks on paper that don&#8217;t mean shit.</p>
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		<title>By: RobVG</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/04/26/the-economic-argument-is-over/#comment-23523</link>
		<dc:creator>RobVG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Apr 2013 16:27:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=31577#comment-23523</guid>
		<description>The Fed&#039;s been buying &quot;troubled assets&quot;, i.e.  &quot;printing money&quot; Since 2008. Hundreds of billions of  dollars a year. The action is removing risks from the banks that got us into this mess and it&#039;s providing them with more money to loan.

1.6 Trillion to date. I&#039;m sure you understand the consequences. 

This thing is not over.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.marketplace.org/topics/economy/federal-reserve-meets-considers-future-quantitative-easing&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Future of Quantitative Easing</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Fed&#8217;s been buying &#8220;troubled assets&#8221;, i.e.  &#8220;printing money&#8221; Since 2008. Hundreds of billions of  dollars a year. The action is removing risks from the banks that got us into this mess and it&#8217;s providing them with more money to loan.</p>
<p>1.6 Trillion to date. I&#8217;m sure you understand the consequences. </p>
<p>This thing is not over.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.marketplace.org/topics/economy/federal-reserve-meets-considers-future-quantitative-easing" rel="nofollow">The Future of Quantitative Easing</a></p>
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		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/04/26/the-economic-argument-is-over/#comment-23507</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Apr 2013 01:32:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=31577#comment-23507</guid>
		<description>Its starting to look like the economic study in question was not just in error, it looks like it was fudged.

http://www.peri.umass.edu/236/hash/31e2ff374b6377b2ddec04deaa6388b1/publication/566/

&lt;em&gt;Quelle surprise!&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Its starting to look like the economic study in question was not just in error, it looks like it was fudged.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.peri.umass.edu/236/hash/31e2ff374b6377b2ddec04deaa6388b1/publication/566/" rel="nofollow">http://www.peri.umass.edu/236/hash/31e2ff374b6377b2ddec04deaa6388b1/publication/566/</a></p>
<p><em>Quelle surprise!</em></p>
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		<title>By: alcaray</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/04/26/the-economic-argument-is-over/#comment-23495</link>
		<dc:creator>alcaray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Apr 2013 07:38:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=31577#comment-23495</guid>
		<description>Though there might be mischief if someone tries to advance an economic/political thesis by comparing numbers calculated one way with numbers calculated the other way (looking at you, Heritage Foundation).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Though there might be mischief if someone tries to advance an economic/political thesis by comparing numbers calculated one way with numbers calculated the other way (looking at you, Heritage Foundation).</p>
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		<title>By: TB</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/04/26/the-economic-argument-is-over/#comment-23494</link>
		<dc:creator>TB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Apr 2013 05:44:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=31577#comment-23494</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Completely unrelated story...&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/04/22/huzzah-the-u-s-economy-is-3-percent-bigger-than-we-thought-thanks-george-lucas/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Here.&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Completely unrelated story&#8230;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/04/22/huzzah-the-u-s-economy-is-3-percent-bigger-than-we-thought-thanks-george-lucas/" rel="nofollow">Here.</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jody</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/04/26/the-economic-argument-is-over/#comment-23493</link>
		<dc:creator>Jody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Apr 2013 03:45:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=31577#comment-23493</guid>
		<description>Oh thank god...okay people...as you were.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh thank god&#8230;okay people&#8230;as you were.</p>
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