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	<title>Comments on: Okay, I would like to start a thread and I would really like it to stay on topic, if at all possible.</title>
	<atom:link href="http://habitablezone.com/2013/07/23/okay-i-would-like-to-start-a-thread-and-i-would-really-like-it-to-stay-on-topic-if-at-all-possible/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/07/23/okay-i-would-like-to-start-a-thread-and-i-would-really-like-it-to-stay-on-topic-if-at-all-possible/</link>
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		<title>By: TB</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/07/23/okay-i-would-like-to-start-a-thread-and-i-would-really-like-it-to-stay-on-topic-if-at-all-possible/#comment-25566</link>
		<dc:creator>TB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jul 2013 20:11:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=35362#comment-25566</guid>
		<description>&quot;I already know why you selected it and what you’re trying to prove, and you would locate it in a place that is sympathetic to your opinion, so I know exactly what its going to say.&quot;

Heh. Just kidding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I already know why you selected it and what you’re trying to prove, and you would locate it in a place that is sympathetic to your opinion, so I know exactly what its going to say.&#8221;</p>
<p>Heh. Just kidding.</p>
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		<title>By: SteveS</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/07/23/okay-i-would-like-to-start-a-thread-and-i-would-really-like-it-to-stay-on-topic-if-at-all-possible/#comment-25539</link>
		<dc:creator>SteveS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jul 2013 17:00:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=35362#comment-25539</guid>
		<description>Well yes, America prospered after WWII, manufacturing boomed, auto production quadrupled, the interstate highway system along with new bridges were being built, the baby boomers required new schools to be built and so on as the government was spending loads of money. The US was admired around the world as the richest country in the world and most wanted to come here to experience the finacial freedom and prosper. But guess what, the middle class wasn&#039;t spending enough money to keep the economy thriving as the deficit rose, inflation rose and they ended up with record high unemployment for the times and into a recession. It wasn&#039;t until JFK decided to lower taxes to encourage job growth that the economy started to recover.

Look at where we are now because of Obama&#039;s middle out stimulus failures of thinking that government spending on infrastructures was somehow going to bring us out of the greatest recession since Black Friday. We have the worst recovery in 60 years with high unemployment, stagnation growth, cities going bankrupt,  inflation creepy up, double the price of gas from when Obama was elected, wages dropping across the board and historic deficits. 

&lt;a href=&quot;http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/US_Unemployment_1890-2011.gif&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Heres a chart for you&lt;/a&gt; I give up on the imaging for now.

This middle out economy policy is unsustainable and history proves it.

Sorry you missed the lesson. ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well yes, America prospered after WWII, manufacturing boomed, auto production quadrupled, the interstate highway system along with new bridges were being built, the baby boomers required new schools to be built and so on as the government was spending loads of money. The US was admired around the world as the richest country in the world and most wanted to come here to experience the finacial freedom and prosper. But guess what, the middle class wasn&#8217;t spending enough money to keep the economy thriving as the deficit rose, inflation rose and they ended up with record high unemployment for the times and into a recession. It wasn&#8217;t until JFK decided to lower taxes to encourage job growth that the economy started to recover.</p>
<p>Look at where we are now because of Obama&#8217;s middle out stimulus failures of thinking that government spending on infrastructures was somehow going to bring us out of the greatest recession since Black Friday. We have the worst recovery in 60 years with high unemployment, stagnation growth, cities going bankrupt,  inflation creepy up, double the price of gas from when Obama was elected, wages dropping across the board and historic deficits. </p>
<p><a href="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/US_Unemployment_1890-2011.gif" rel="nofollow">Heres a chart for you</a> I give up on the imaging for now.</p>
<p>This middle out economy policy is unsustainable and history proves it.</p>
<p>Sorry you missed the lesson. <img src='https://habitablezone.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: TB</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/07/23/okay-i-would-like-to-start-a-thread-and-i-would-really-like-it-to-stay-on-topic-if-at-all-possible/#comment-25519</link>
		<dc:creator>TB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jul 2013 22:19:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=35362#comment-25519</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Actually, that chart doesn&#039;t show who&#039;s in those groups over time at all.&lt;/p&gt;

People&#039;s &lt;em&gt;views&lt;/em&gt; of their mobility are discussed extensively in chapter 4 (remember, this is largely the results of an opinion poll), but actual statistical mobility isn&#039;t really touched on (at least that I&#039;ve been able to find. Long paper. If I missed it, flag me).

There is this in the overview:

&lt;blockquote&gt;In 2011, this middle-income tier included 51% of all adults; back in 1971, using the same income boundaries, it had included 61%.  The hollowing of the middle has been accompanied by a dispersion of the population into the economic tiers both above and below.

The upper-income tier rose to 20% of adults in 2011, up from 14% in 1971; the lower-income tier rose to 29%, up from 25%.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

If you do the math, the middle class dropped 10 points, the upper class rose 6 points and the lower class rose 4.

Then there&#039;s this (not from the paper):

&lt;img src=&quot;http://www.aei-ideas.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/families.jpg&quot; alt=&quot;&quot; width=&quot;400&quot; /&gt;

The percentage numbers don&#039;t match, which I think is about where the different &quot;splits&quot; are made for income ranges. The chart shows its splits. Pew puts &quot;middle income tier&quot; at anywhere between $39,418 to $118,255 (footnote one in overview) which seems a bit generous since that latter number gets you comfortably into the top quintile.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, that chart doesn&#8217;t show who&#8217;s in those groups over time at all.</p>
<p>People&#8217;s <em>views</em> of their mobility are discussed extensively in chapter 4 (remember, this is largely the results of an opinion poll), but actual statistical mobility isn&#8217;t really touched on (at least that I&#8217;ve been able to find. Long paper. If I missed it, flag me).</p>
<p>There is this in the overview:</p>
<blockquote><p>In 2011, this middle-income tier included 51% of all adults; back in 1971, using the same income boundaries, it had included 61%.  The hollowing of the middle has been accompanied by a dispersion of the population into the economic tiers both above and below.</p>
<p>The upper-income tier rose to 20% of adults in 2011, up from 14% in 1971; the lower-income tier rose to 29%, up from 25%.</p></blockquote>
<p>If you do the math, the middle class dropped 10 points, the upper class rose 6 points and the lower class rose 4.</p>
<p>Then there&#8217;s this (not from the paper):</p>
<p><img src="http://www.aei-ideas.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/families.jpg" alt="" width="400" /></p>
<p>The percentage numbers don&#8217;t match, which I think is about where the different &#8220;splits&#8221; are made for income ranges. The chart shows its splits. Pew puts &#8220;middle income tier&#8221; at anywhere between $39,418 to $118,255 (footnote one in overview) which seems a bit generous since that latter number gets you comfortably into the top quintile.</p>
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		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/07/23/okay-i-would-like-to-start-a-thread-and-i-would-really-like-it-to-stay-on-topic-if-at-all-possible/#comment-25516</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jul 2013 21:39:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=35362#comment-25516</guid>
		<description>Hard times for the middle class, but during that decade, I was between 23 and 33 years old.  Those were the years when my career was just taking off, I went to college, worked overseas, lived all over the country, experimented with different jobs, finished graduate school, without any family responsibilities to hold me back.  I could afford to experiment and take chances, but I also had little in the way of committments or obligations. I was used to travelling light and living off the land.  

Of course, my experiences are irrelevant, unless you consider that as part of the postwar Baby Boom, a lot of people were in the exact same boat I was.  And it was a sweet ride, fueled by GI Bill, and other government welfare for the middle class!  We pretty much missed the hard economy all around us and took advantage of the time to gather travel, experience and education.  The Boomers went through the timeline like a pig through a python, pretty much unaware of what was going on all around them because for the most part, they usually hung out with people just like them: young, free, educated, and just starting their careers.

By the time I got my first professional hi-tech job I was 31, and I married at 33. I had no children, which was a decision many of my contemporaries also made, or postponed til later. I made out like a bandit, but I know why.  The only really smart move I can take credit for was to realize the party couldn&#039;t last forever and to take the appropriate precautions.

&quot;They say I shot a man named Gray 
 and took his wife to Italy
She inherited a million bucks
 and when she died it came to me
I can&#039;t help it if I&#039;m lucky.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hard times for the middle class, but during that decade, I was between 23 and 33 years old.  Those were the years when my career was just taking off, I went to college, worked overseas, lived all over the country, experimented with different jobs, finished graduate school, without any family responsibilities to hold me back.  I could afford to experiment and take chances, but I also had little in the way of committments or obligations. I was used to travelling light and living off the land.  </p>
<p>Of course, my experiences are irrelevant, unless you consider that as part of the postwar Baby Boom, a lot of people were in the exact same boat I was.  And it was a sweet ride, fueled by GI Bill, and other government welfare for the middle class!  We pretty much missed the hard economy all around us and took advantage of the time to gather travel, experience and education.  The Boomers went through the timeline like a pig through a python, pretty much unaware of what was going on all around them because for the most part, they usually hung out with people just like them: young, free, educated, and just starting their careers.</p>
<p>By the time I got my first professional hi-tech job I was 31, and I married at 33. I had no children, which was a decision many of my contemporaries also made, or postponed til later. I made out like a bandit, but I know why.  The only really smart move I can take credit for was to realize the party couldn&#8217;t last forever and to take the appropriate precautions.</p>
<p>&#8220;They say I shot a man named Gray<br />
 and took his wife to Italy<br />
She inherited a million bucks<br />
 and when she died it came to me<br />
I can&#8217;t help it if I&#8217;m lucky.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/07/23/okay-i-would-like-to-start-a-thread-and-i-would-really-like-it-to-stay-on-topic-if-at-all-possible/#comment-25515</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jul 2013 21:30:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=35362#comment-25515</guid>
		<description>Gives me a chance to add that what the chart measures is economic mobility, which you might call the first derivative of wealth. It&#039;s about future prospects, and that doesn&#039;t look like good news.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gives me a chance to add that what the chart measures is economic mobility, which you might call the first derivative of wealth. It&#8217;s about future prospects, and that doesn&#8217;t look like good news.</p>
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		<title>By: TB</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/07/23/okay-i-would-like-to-start-a-thread-and-i-would-really-like-it-to-stay-on-topic-if-at-all-possible/#comment-25513</link>
		<dc:creator>TB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jul 2013 20:51:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=35362#comment-25513</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Here ya go...&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;img src=&quot;http://thumbnails.visually.netdna-cdn.com/average-annual-change-in-mean-family-income_503be10ac125c_w969.png&quot; alt=&quot;&quot; width=&quot;500&quot; /&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here ya go&#8230;</p>
<p><img src="http://thumbnails.visually.netdna-cdn.com/average-annual-change-in-mean-family-income_503be10ac125c_w969.png" alt="" width="500" /></p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/07/23/okay-i-would-like-to-start-a-thread-and-i-would-really-like-it-to-stay-on-topic-if-at-all-possible/#comment-25512</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jul 2013 19:17:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=35362#comment-25512</guid>
		<description>I was born in 1954, so I didn&#039;t directly experience the New Deal. But it was my immense good fortune to be born into the payoff.

(Tried to insert an image of a graph of income growth of the middle class, but it looks like it&#039;s blocked for offsite linkage. See the report linked below, page 59.)
&lt;img src=&quot;http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/business/assets_c/2012/08/Pew_History_Middle_Class_Families_Income_History-96949.php&quot; /&gt;
From a Pew report &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/files/2012/08/pew-social-trends-lost-decade-of-the-middle-class.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Lost Decade of the Middle Class&lt;/a&gt;

You really weren&#039;t aware of the post War boom and the huge expansion of the middle class? An expansion made possible by a balance of unionization, government-financed higher education (e.g. GI Bill), and government-guaranteed mortgages (VA and traditional FNMA). Interesting, too, is the fact that the top marginal tax rates peaked at &lt;b&gt;91%&lt;/b&gt; in 1960, in the midst of the greatest period of sustained prosperity in American history.

Sorry you missed it ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was born in 1954, so I didn&#8217;t directly experience the New Deal. But it was my immense good fortune to be born into the payoff.</p>
<p>(Tried to insert an image of a graph of income growth of the middle class, but it looks like it&#8217;s blocked for offsite linkage. See the report linked below, page 59.)<br />
<img src="http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/business/assets_c/2012/08/Pew_History_Middle_Class_Families_Income_History-96949.php" /><br />
From a Pew report <a href="http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/files/2012/08/pew-social-trends-lost-decade-of-the-middle-class.pdf" rel="nofollow">The Lost Decade of the Middle Class</a></p>
<p>You really weren&#8217;t aware of the post War boom and the huge expansion of the middle class? An expansion made possible by a balance of unionization, government-financed higher education (e.g. GI Bill), and government-guaranteed mortgages (VA and traditional FNMA). Interesting, too, is the fact that the top marginal tax rates peaked at <b>91%</b> in 1960, in the midst of the greatest period of sustained prosperity in American history.</p>
<p>Sorry you missed it <img src='https://habitablezone.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: SteveS</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/07/23/okay-i-would-like-to-start-a-thread-and-i-would-really-like-it-to-stay-on-topic-if-at-all-possible/#comment-25497</link>
		<dc:creator>SteveS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jul 2013 14:50:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=35362#comment-25497</guid>
		<description>

&lt;blockquote&gt;It helps that “middle-out” economic policies have been tested and proven to work, long before the name came along. They’re the policies that created America’s first great middle class&lt;/blockquote&gt;



What period are you talking about? I may have missed this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>It helps that “middle-out” economic policies have been tested and proven to work, long before the name came along. They’re the policies that created America’s first great middle class</p></blockquote>
<p>What period are you talking about? I may have missed this.</p>
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		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/07/23/okay-i-would-like-to-start-a-thread-and-i-would-really-like-it-to-stay-on-topic-if-at-all-possible/#comment-25463</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jul 2013 19:15:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=35362#comment-25463</guid>
		<description>Trickle down economics

&lt;img src=&quot;http://www.busanhaps.com/sites/default/files/reagon1.jpg&quot; alt=&quot;.&quot; /&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Trickle down economics</p>
<p><img src="http://www.busanhaps.com/sites/default/files/reagon1.jpg" alt="." /></p>
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		<title>By: TB</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/07/23/okay-i-would-like-to-start-a-thread-and-i-would-really-like-it-to-stay-on-topic-if-at-all-possible/#comment-25461</link>
		<dc:creator>TB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jul 2013 19:01:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://habitablezone.com/?p=35362#comment-25461</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Obamacare was signed into law on March of 2010.&lt;/p&gt;

At that time, the law was the result of a Congress where the Democrats had a 79 seat margin in the House and 58 seats in the Senate. That margin was in place for Obama for two solid years.

Most of Obamacare&#039;s problems were caused by Democrats (and one independent) who had to be dragged on board.

The first draft out of the Senate was 2,076 pages. It left the Senate at 2,409.

Then there&#039;s the Stimulus Bill, Dodd-Frank, the GM takeover, nationalizing the student loan industry, and the payroll tax holiday.  All of these qualify nicely as &quot;middle-out&quot; ideas.

I&#039;m well-aware that the mantra for 2014 is going to be &quot;we could have done it if not for those meddling Republicans.&quot; I&#039;m watching Detroit being blamed on Republicans right now. But it&#039;s important not to start believing your own bullshit.

Got anything of substance to say on economic inequality? Yes, I do. Go back and read it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obamacare was signed into law on March of 2010.</p>
<p>At that time, the law was the result of a Congress where the Democrats had a 79 seat margin in the House and 58 seats in the Senate. That margin was in place for Obama for two solid years.</p>
<p>Most of Obamacare&#8217;s problems were caused by Democrats (and one independent) who had to be dragged on board.</p>
<p>The first draft out of the Senate was 2,076 pages. It left the Senate at 2,409.</p>
<p>Then there&#8217;s the Stimulus Bill, Dodd-Frank, the GM takeover, nationalizing the student loan industry, and the payroll tax holiday.  All of these qualify nicely as &#8220;middle-out&#8221; ideas.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m well-aware that the mantra for 2014 is going to be &#8220;we could have done it if not for those meddling Republicans.&#8221; I&#8217;m watching Detroit being blamed on Republicans right now. But it&#8217;s important not to start believing your own bullshit.</p>
<p>Got anything of substance to say on economic inequality? Yes, I do. Go back and read it.</p>
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