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	<title>Comments on: Any thoughts out there on the Minimum Wage debate . . . ?</title>
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		<title>By: DanS</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/12/09/any-thoughts-out-there-on-the-minimum-wage-debate/#comment-29728</link>
		<dc:creator>DanS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Feb 2014 13:16:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.habitablezone.com/?p=41210#comment-29728</guid>
		<description>I just thought the White House canned non-reply statement, while expected, was sort of humorous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just thought the White House canned non-reply statement, while expected, was sort of humorous.</p>
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		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/12/09/any-thoughts-out-there-on-the-minimum-wage-debate/#comment-29727</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Feb 2014 12:16:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.habitablezone.com/?p=41210#comment-29727</guid>
		<description>...is to have as many people working as possible, earning as much as possible, so that they will be happy and vote the government back in power.

The purpose of business is to have as few people working as possible, earning as little as possible, so that profits will be maximized and so people will be so desperate for employment they will be willing to work for shit wages under horrible conditions and not cause any trouble.

The purpose of the workers is to make as much money as possible for as little effort as possible.  

Once you understand that, the mystery goes away and everybody&#039;s motivations are clear. When evaluating the arguments for or against this kind of policy, keep in mind that those most loudly making the arguments all have skin in the game.  Still, in my opinion, if you&#039;re working two jobs and still can&#039;t pay your bills and feed your family, you&#039;re probably not a worthless welfare scam artist, or a teen-ager working for spending money.  In fact, these days, you&#039;re probably someone that used to be in the middle class and used to vote a straight Republican ticket.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;is to have as many people working as possible, earning as much as possible, so that they will be happy and vote the government back in power.</p>
<p>The purpose of business is to have as few people working as possible, earning as little as possible, so that profits will be maximized and so people will be so desperate for employment they will be willing to work for shit wages under horrible conditions and not cause any trouble.</p>
<p>The purpose of the workers is to make as much money as possible for as little effort as possible.  </p>
<p>Once you understand that, the mystery goes away and everybody&#8217;s motivations are clear. When evaluating the arguments for or against this kind of policy, keep in mind that those most loudly making the arguments all have skin in the game.  Still, in my opinion, if you&#8217;re working two jobs and still can&#8217;t pay your bills and feed your family, you&#8217;re probably not a worthless welfare scam artist, or a teen-ager working for spending money.  In fact, these days, you&#8217;re probably someone that used to be in the middle class and used to vote a straight Republican ticket.</p>
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		<title>By: DanS</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/12/09/any-thoughts-out-there-on-the-minimum-wage-debate/#comment-29725</link>
		<dc:creator>DanS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:47:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.habitablezone.com/?p=41210#comment-29725</guid>
		<description>
From Me:


&lt;blockquote&gt;There is on the table the question of raising minimum wage. President Clinton had a plan to make overtime pay tax-free, stating that Americans work overtime for themselves and their families, not for the government.&lt;/blockquote&gt;


The Reply:


&lt;blockquote&gt;Thank you for writing.  Every day, I hear from people who feel like the odds are stacked against them in a changing economy.  As President, my top priority is building a better bargain for the middle class and those striving to get into the middle class—one where everyone who works hard can get ahead.

We have already started on that path.  America has fought its way back from the worst recession of our lifetimes.  Our businesses have created millions of new jobs.  We produce more renewable energy than ever, and more natural gas than anyone.  Health care costs are growing at the slowest rate in 50 years.  Our deficits are falling at the fastest rate in 60 years.

Thanks to the grit and resilience of the American people, we have cleared away the rubble of crisis and begun to lay a new foundation for stronger, more durable economic growth.

But as any middle-class family will tell you, we are not where we need to be.  Growing inequality, technology that makes some jobs obsolete, and global competition have been eroding middle-class security for decades.  In some ways, the recession made these trends worse.

Reversing them must be Washington’s highest priority.  It certainly is mine.  That is why I have laid out a strategy that builds on the cornerstones of what it means to be middle class in America, and what it takes to work your way into the middle class.

The first cornerstone must be an economy that generates more good jobs in durable, growing industries.  Here, we are already making progress: over the past 4 years, the number of American manufacturing jobs has gone up for the first time in over a decade.  But we can do more.  I am going to keep pushing for initiatives and tax reforms to help more manufacturers bring jobs back to the United States.  And I will keep fighting for the infrastructure upgrades that will put people back to work and help America lead the global economy.

The second cornerstone is an education that prepares our children and our workers for the global competition they are going to face.  That has to start early—which is why I am committed to making high-quality preschool available for every 4-year-old and high-speed Internet available for every school.  We also need to find better ways to train workers for changing jobs, especially those who have been laid off.

And at a time when a college degree has never been more important, we need to tackle the soaring cost of higher education.  I was proud to sign legislation that reformed the student loan system and stopped loan rates from doubling.  I have also proposed an aggressive plan to make college more affordable by providing better value for students, encouraging innovation that keeps tuition down, and helping borrowers manage their debt responsibly.

The third cornerstone of a strong middle class is homeownership based on a solid foundation, where buyers and lenders play by the same set of rules.  Already, I have asked Congress to pass a bipartisan bill that would give every homeowner the chance to refinance their mortgage while rates are still low.  I am also acting on my own to cut red tape for responsible families who are having trouble taking out a mortgage.

The fourth cornerstone is a secure retirement.  Each day, I hear from people who feel like retirement is receding from their grasp, even as a rising stock market has millions of retirement balances going up.  We need a tax code that makes it easier for hardworking Americans to put away money, and frees middle-class families from the fear that they will never retire.

Fifth, I am going to keep focusing on health care.  Middle-class families and small business owners deserve the security of knowing their life’s work is no longer one illness or accident away from being wiped out.  So we will keep implementing the Affordable Care Act, which already provides new benefits and better protections for the 85 percent of Americans who have health insurance.  And if you do not have insurance, you now have the chance to buy a plan that is right for you at www.HealthCare.gov.

Finally, as we work to strengthen the cornerstones of middle-class security, we need to rebuild ladders of opportunity for Americans who are working hard but suffering poverty wages, or cannot get full-time work.  We need a new push to get rundown neighborhoods and hard-hit towns back on their feet.  I will also keep making the case for raising the minimum wage, because no one who works full-time should have to live in poverty.

Job security, a good education, your own home, affordable health care, a secure retirement, and growing opportunity—these are the cornerstones of a better bargain for the middle class and those striving to reach it.  These are basic American promises I will use every remaining day of my Presidency to restore.

In this effort, I will work with Republicans and Democrats wherever I can, but I will not allow gridlock, inaction, or willful indifference to get in our way.  The stakes are too high.  The choices we make right now will determine whether or not every American has a fighting chance in the 21st century.  And together, I know we can do what it takes to build an economy where everyone who works hard can get ahead.

Thank you, again, for writing.  To learn more about my economic vision, visit www.WhiteHouse.gov/a-Better-Bargain.  For information on jobs, health benefits, housing assistance, and other public resources, call 1‑800‑FED‑INFO or visit www.USA.gov.  

Sincerely,

Barack Obama&lt;/blockquote&gt;


We-e-ell -- no comment...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From Me:</p>
<blockquote><p>There is on the table the question of raising minimum wage. President Clinton had a plan to make overtime pay tax-free, stating that Americans work overtime for themselves and their families, not for the government.</p></blockquote>
<p>The Reply:</p>
<blockquote><p>Thank you for writing.  Every day, I hear from people who feel like the odds are stacked against them in a changing economy.  As President, my top priority is building a better bargain for the middle class and those striving to get into the middle class—one where everyone who works hard can get ahead.</p>
<p>We have already started on that path.  America has fought its way back from the worst recession of our lifetimes.  Our businesses have created millions of new jobs.  We produce more renewable energy than ever, and more natural gas than anyone.  Health care costs are growing at the slowest rate in 50 years.  Our deficits are falling at the fastest rate in 60 years.</p>
<p>Thanks to the grit and resilience of the American people, we have cleared away the rubble of crisis and begun to lay a new foundation for stronger, more durable economic growth.</p>
<p>But as any middle-class family will tell you, we are not where we need to be.  Growing inequality, technology that makes some jobs obsolete, and global competition have been eroding middle-class security for decades.  In some ways, the recession made these trends worse.</p>
<p>Reversing them must be Washington’s highest priority.  It certainly is mine.  That is why I have laid out a strategy that builds on the cornerstones of what it means to be middle class in America, and what it takes to work your way into the middle class.</p>
<p>The first cornerstone must be an economy that generates more good jobs in durable, growing industries.  Here, we are already making progress: over the past 4 years, the number of American manufacturing jobs has gone up for the first time in over a decade.  But we can do more.  I am going to keep pushing for initiatives and tax reforms to help more manufacturers bring jobs back to the United States.  And I will keep fighting for the infrastructure upgrades that will put people back to work and help America lead the global economy.</p>
<p>The second cornerstone is an education that prepares our children and our workers for the global competition they are going to face.  That has to start early—which is why I am committed to making high-quality preschool available for every 4-year-old and high-speed Internet available for every school.  We also need to find better ways to train workers for changing jobs, especially those who have been laid off.</p>
<p>And at a time when a college degree has never been more important, we need to tackle the soaring cost of higher education.  I was proud to sign legislation that reformed the student loan system and stopped loan rates from doubling.  I have also proposed an aggressive plan to make college more affordable by providing better value for students, encouraging innovation that keeps tuition down, and helping borrowers manage their debt responsibly.</p>
<p>The third cornerstone of a strong middle class is homeownership based on a solid foundation, where buyers and lenders play by the same set of rules.  Already, I have asked Congress to pass a bipartisan bill that would give every homeowner the chance to refinance their mortgage while rates are still low.  I am also acting on my own to cut red tape for responsible families who are having trouble taking out a mortgage.</p>
<p>The fourth cornerstone is a secure retirement.  Each day, I hear from people who feel like retirement is receding from their grasp, even as a rising stock market has millions of retirement balances going up.  We need a tax code that makes it easier for hardworking Americans to put away money, and frees middle-class families from the fear that they will never retire.</p>
<p>Fifth, I am going to keep focusing on health care.  Middle-class families and small business owners deserve the security of knowing their life’s work is no longer one illness or accident away from being wiped out.  So we will keep implementing the Affordable Care Act, which already provides new benefits and better protections for the 85 percent of Americans who have health insurance.  And if you do not have insurance, you now have the chance to buy a plan that is right for you at <a href="http://www.HealthCare.gov" rel="nofollow">http://www.HealthCare.gov</a>.</p>
<p>Finally, as we work to strengthen the cornerstones of middle-class security, we need to rebuild ladders of opportunity for Americans who are working hard but suffering poverty wages, or cannot get full-time work.  We need a new push to get rundown neighborhoods and hard-hit towns back on their feet.  I will also keep making the case for raising the minimum wage, because no one who works full-time should have to live in poverty.</p>
<p>Job security, a good education, your own home, affordable health care, a secure retirement, and growing opportunity—these are the cornerstones of a better bargain for the middle class and those striving to reach it.  These are basic American promises I will use every remaining day of my Presidency to restore.</p>
<p>In this effort, I will work with Republicans and Democrats wherever I can, but I will not allow gridlock, inaction, or willful indifference to get in our way.  The stakes are too high.  The choices we make right now will determine whether or not every American has a fighting chance in the 21st century.  And together, I know we can do what it takes to build an economy where everyone who works hard can get ahead.</p>
<p>Thank you, again, for writing.  To learn more about my economic vision, visit <a href="http://www.WhiteHouse.gov/a-Better-Bargain" rel="nofollow">http://www.WhiteHouse.gov/a-Better-Bargain</a>.  For information on jobs, health benefits, housing assistance, and other public resources, call 1‑800‑FED‑INFO or visit <a href="http://www.USA.gov" rel="nofollow">http://www.USA.gov</a>.  </p>
<p>Sincerely,</p>
<p>Barack Obama</p></blockquote>
<p>We-e-ell &#8212; no comment&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: DanS</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/12/09/any-thoughts-out-there-on-the-minimum-wage-debate/#comment-28820</link>
		<dc:creator>DanS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Dec 2013 19:12:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.habitablezone.com/?p=41210#comment-28820</guid>
		<description>...And regardless what some want to say of such a disaster, it would help to revitalize industry, by putting more buyers in the checkout line, working to bolster hiring.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;And regardless what some want to say of such a disaster, it would help to revitalize industry, by putting more buyers in the checkout line, working to bolster hiring.</p>
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		<title>By: TB</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/12/09/any-thoughts-out-there-on-the-minimum-wage-debate/#comment-28819</link>
		<dc:creator>TB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Dec 2013 18:06:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.habitablezone.com/?p=41210#comment-28819</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;It&#039;s more complicated than particular administrations.&lt;/p&gt;

For one thing, the minimum wage was cranked up more than once during those times, and it&#039;s natural for the number of people working at that wage or below to spike as the line is raised.

That said, the 1980s did seem to be a very good decade.

National wage controls are as idiotic as any other form of national centralized economic planning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s more complicated than particular administrations.</p>
<p>For one thing, the minimum wage was cranked up more than once during those times, and it&#8217;s natural for the number of people working at that wage or below to spike as the line is raised.</p>
<p>That said, the 1980s did seem to be a very good decade.</p>
<p>National wage controls are as idiotic as any other form of national centralized economic planning.</p>
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		<title>By: bowser</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/12/09/any-thoughts-out-there-on-the-minimum-wage-debate/#comment-28816</link>
		<dc:creator>bowser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Dec 2013 17:47:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.habitablezone.com/?p=41210#comment-28816</guid>
		<description>What Conservatives say and what Conservatives do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What Conservatives say and what Conservatives do.</p>
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		<title>By: SteveS</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/12/09/any-thoughts-out-there-on-the-minimum-wage-debate/#comment-28815</link>
		<dc:creator>SteveS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Dec 2013 14:43:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.habitablezone.com/?p=41210#comment-28815</guid>
		<description>Look at the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2012.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;pdf link&lt;/a&gt; TB provided and go to page 12. Now look at which years had the lowest people at the minimum wage rate.

Republicans want the poor to get better jobs, off welfare and government assistance so they will pay taxes and make the government smaller. It makes the people and the country healthier. The democrats want people to rely on the government as is evident in today&#039;s economy. The current historic gap between the rich and middle class is not the results of republican policies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Look at the <a href="http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2012.pdf" rel="nofollow">pdf link</a> TB provided and go to page 12. Now look at which years had the lowest people at the minimum wage rate.</p>
<p>Republicans want the poor to get better jobs, off welfare and government assistance so they will pay taxes and make the government smaller. It makes the people and the country healthier. The democrats want people to rely on the government as is evident in today&#8217;s economy. The current historic gap between the rich and middle class is not the results of republican policies.</p>
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		<title>By: SteveS</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/12/09/any-thoughts-out-there-on-the-minimum-wage-debate/#comment-28814</link>
		<dc:creator>SteveS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Dec 2013 14:11:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.habitablezone.com/?p=41210#comment-28814</guid>
		<description>and maybe I did the math wrong but when I added inflation every year to the minimum wage starting in 2000 to 2013 I came up with $7.00. That&#039;s .25 less than it is now. That system might not work for every decade or decades but one could add stop controls or financial adjustments if inflation rose to abnormal  highs and then adjust the rate when things get back to normal.

Great link btw.

It shows that during the Bush years is when the least amount of people where being paid the minimum wage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>and maybe I did the math wrong but when I added inflation every year to the minimum wage starting in 2000 to 2013 I came up with $7.00. That&#8217;s .25 less than it is now. That system might not work for every decade or decades but one could add stop controls or financial adjustments if inflation rose to abnormal  highs and then adjust the rate when things get back to normal.</p>
<p>Great link btw.</p>
<p>It shows that during the Bush years is when the least amount of people where being paid the minimum wage.</p>
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		<title>By: FrankC</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/12/09/any-thoughts-out-there-on-the-minimum-wage-debate/#comment-28812</link>
		<dc:creator>FrankC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Dec 2013 06:32:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.habitablezone.com/?p=41210#comment-28812</guid>
		<description>that any law promoting overtime would have a negative effect on employment.

Maybe it&#039;s a good idea. I don&#039;t know. It might enable some minimum wage people get over the poverty line but it is bound to cut into available minimum wage jobs</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>that any law promoting overtime would have a negative effect on employment.</p>
<p>Maybe it&#8217;s a good idea. I don&#8217;t know. It might enable some minimum wage people get over the poverty line but it is bound to cut into available minimum wage jobs</p>
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		<title>By: bowser</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/12/09/any-thoughts-out-there-on-the-minimum-wage-debate/#comment-28810</link>
		<dc:creator>bowser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Dec 2013 06:10:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.habitablezone.com/?p=41210#comment-28810</guid>
		<description>When I was a kid, the predictions for the future, factoring in increases in productivity and labor-saving devices, were for 4 day, 6 hour workweeks with long vacations.  Unfortunately, the wealth has not gone to the disappearing middle class but to the top 1% and overseas.  Instead of an easy life, the middle class is facing extermination.

A minimum wage upon which one could live is philosophically desirable.  After all, a burger flipper is devoting the one thing they have that is the equal of someone managing a hedge fund - their time.  And is probably more productive than the hedge fund manager.  There should be some basic equivalence in compensation for spending time on a job.  And if it can&#039;t be made to pay, then it shouldn&#039;t be done.

That&#039;s basic.  A janitor&#039;s job is as honorable as a stockbroker&#039;s, and the wages should have some relationship to each other&#039;s.  And if each works 8 hours, it takes each of them a third of a day of their life.

The American economic engine should benefit more than the super-wealthy.  It used to be that a kid who didn&#039;t like reading all that much could become an apprentice, learn a trade, buy a house and put his or her kids through college.  No more.  That kid now can flip those burgers or deal drugs.  I can see why so many choose the latter.

When all the money goes to the top, with relatively low taxation, all that&#039;s left for the rest of the folks are social programs.  While there are many who would watch them starve and make medical care inaccessible, I&#039;m hoping that&#039;s not the American Way.  The American Dream is gone, American idealism is gone, and the fight against Universal Health Care is an argument that the American Way is next to go, hopefully it&#039;s not yet.

Oddly, the Conservative agenda is to concentrate all the wealth at the top and starve the folks at the bottom.  Sort of a banana republic.  That is as obvious as the sun coming up, yet they don&#039;t admit to it.

Nope, it would be nice to see an equitable distribution of wealth in this country.  Unfortunately, the trend is the opposite, and as the man said, &quot;When the laws can be used to plunder, the plunderers will make the laws.&quot;  That&#039;s our reality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I was a kid, the predictions for the future, factoring in increases in productivity and labor-saving devices, were for 4 day, 6 hour workweeks with long vacations.  Unfortunately, the wealth has not gone to the disappearing middle class but to the top 1% and overseas.  Instead of an easy life, the middle class is facing extermination.</p>
<p>A minimum wage upon which one could live is philosophically desirable.  After all, a burger flipper is devoting the one thing they have that is the equal of someone managing a hedge fund &#8211; their time.  And is probably more productive than the hedge fund manager.  There should be some basic equivalence in compensation for spending time on a job.  And if it can&#8217;t be made to pay, then it shouldn&#8217;t be done.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s basic.  A janitor&#8217;s job is as honorable as a stockbroker&#8217;s, and the wages should have some relationship to each other&#8217;s.  And if each works 8 hours, it takes each of them a third of a day of their life.</p>
<p>The American economic engine should benefit more than the super-wealthy.  It used to be that a kid who didn&#8217;t like reading all that much could become an apprentice, learn a trade, buy a house and put his or her kids through college.  No more.  That kid now can flip those burgers or deal drugs.  I can see why so many choose the latter.</p>
<p>When all the money goes to the top, with relatively low taxation, all that&#8217;s left for the rest of the folks are social programs.  While there are many who would watch them starve and make medical care inaccessible, I&#8217;m hoping that&#8217;s not the American Way.  The American Dream is gone, American idealism is gone, and the fight against Universal Health Care is an argument that the American Way is next to go, hopefully it&#8217;s not yet.</p>
<p>Oddly, the Conservative agenda is to concentrate all the wealth at the top and starve the folks at the bottom.  Sort of a banana republic.  That is as obvious as the sun coming up, yet they don&#8217;t admit to it.</p>
<p>Nope, it would be nice to see an equitable distribution of wealth in this country.  Unfortunately, the trend is the opposite, and as the man said, &#8220;When the laws can be used to plunder, the plunderers will make the laws.&#8221;  That&#8217;s our reality.</p>
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