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	<title>Comments on: Navy&#8217;s new anti-sub plane vastly inferior to the old one.  (P-8 compared with P-3.)</title>
	<atom:link href="http://habitablezone.com/2013/12/09/navys-new-anti-sub-plane-vastly-inferior-to-the-old-one-p-8-compared-with-p-3/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/12/09/navys-new-anti-sub-plane-vastly-inferior-to-the-old-one-p-8-compared-with-p-3/</link>
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		<title>By: bowser</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/12/09/navys-new-anti-sub-plane-vastly-inferior-to-the-old-one-p-8-compared-with-p-3/#comment-28860</link>
		<dc:creator>bowser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:43:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.habitablezone.com/?p=41227#comment-28860</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the info.  &#039;Preciate it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the info.  &#8216;Preciate it.</p>
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		<title>By: Ainz</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/12/09/navys-new-anti-sub-plane-vastly-inferior-to-the-old-one-p-8-compared-with-p-3/#comment-28842</link>
		<dc:creator>Ainz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Dec 2013 02:46:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.habitablezone.com/?p=41227#comment-28842</guid>
		<description>...about our government making really stupid military procurement decisions. They can weaken our fighting ability, endanger our forces, and waste financial resources. The latter can cause a whole new spiral of degraded war-fighting ability. To my mind, the F-35 &#039;Brewster Buffalo II&#039; (aka Joint Strike Fighter) is the very worst example of this sort of disaster. (don&#039;t get me started, that deserves a whole new thread)

I am a big fan of Wikipedia, and not one of those who dismiss it due to it&#039;s open source nature. It is what it is, a launch platform in the search for further information. I&#039;ve noticed that most wiki pages dealing with technical subjects, evolve over time and tend to get cleaned up by the thousands of viewers they attract. Errors are challenged, and corrected, references added, and you generally wind up with a pretty good resource to begin your quest for further knowledge. Like I said, I&#039;m a big fan. I quote from it here, all the time.

That said, the P8 Poseidon wiki page you linked to, is a little misleading on the subject of range. Not your fault.

It gave you the impression that “the total range for the P-8 is 1200 nmi”. That figure is not quite right.

The 1200 nm, is the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=1100&amp;tid=1300&amp;ct=1&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Combat Radius&lt;/a&gt; and that means the P8 can take off from base, fly 1200 nm to it&#039;s patrol location, remain on station for 4 hours, then turn around and fly 1200 nm home. 

This link from the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.airforce.gov.au/Boeing_P8-A_Poseidon/?RAAF-Z4PUOpGXH/eLtWmc6qxYl9xYycb+rKng&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Royal Australian Air Force&lt;/a&gt; gives even more information on that.

But all of that is just about Internal Fuel. (Various P8 versions have 3 to 6 additional fuselage mounted internal fuel taks, with room for expansion)

The real range of the P8 is limited by crew endurance, and lubricating oil for the turbine bearings.

That&#039;s because it is designed to be refueled by a fleet of boom equiped aerial tankers, and can stay aloft almost indefinitely. It has 3 pilots as part of it&#039;s regular flight crew, (Pilot, co-pilot, and 1 relief pilot) and a crew sleep station, just for that reason. 

The airframe has also been re-engineered for low altitude, high maneuverability performance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;about our government making really stupid military procurement decisions. They can weaken our fighting ability, endanger our forces, and waste financial resources. The latter can cause a whole new spiral of degraded war-fighting ability. To my mind, the F-35 &#8216;Brewster Buffalo II&#8217; (aka Joint Strike Fighter) is the very worst example of this sort of disaster. (don&#8217;t get me started, that deserves a whole new thread)</p>
<p>I am a big fan of Wikipedia, and not one of those who dismiss it due to it&#8217;s open source nature. It is what it is, a launch platform in the search for further information. I&#8217;ve noticed that most wiki pages dealing with technical subjects, evolve over time and tend to get cleaned up by the thousands of viewers they attract. Errors are challenged, and corrected, references added, and you generally wind up with a pretty good resource to begin your quest for further knowledge. Like I said, I&#8217;m a big fan. I quote from it here, all the time.</p>
<p>That said, the P8 Poseidon wiki page you linked to, is a little misleading on the subject of range. Not your fault.</p>
<p>It gave you the impression that “the total range for the P-8 is 1200 nmi”. That figure is not quite right.</p>
<p>The 1200 nm, is the <a href="http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=1100&amp;tid=1300&amp;ct=1" rel="nofollow">Combat Radius</a> and that means the P8 can take off from base, fly 1200 nm to it&#8217;s patrol location, remain on station for 4 hours, then turn around and fly 1200 nm home. </p>
<p>This link from the <a href="http://www.airforce.gov.au/Boeing_P8-A_Poseidon/?RAAF-Z4PUOpGXH/eLtWmc6qxYl9xYycb+rKng" rel="nofollow">Royal Australian Air Force</a> gives even more information on that.</p>
<p>But all of that is just about Internal Fuel. (Various P8 versions have 3 to 6 additional fuselage mounted internal fuel taks, with room for expansion)</p>
<p>The real range of the P8 is limited by crew endurance, and lubricating oil for the turbine bearings.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s because it is designed to be refueled by a fleet of boom equiped aerial tankers, and can stay aloft almost indefinitely. It has 3 pilots as part of it&#8217;s regular flight crew, (Pilot, co-pilot, and 1 relief pilot) and a crew sleep station, just for that reason. </p>
<p>The airframe has also been re-engineered for low altitude, high maneuverability performance.</p>
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		<title>By: CJB</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/12/09/navys-new-anti-sub-plane-vastly-inferior-to-the-old-one-p-8-compared-with-p-3/#comment-28817</link>
		<dc:creator>CJB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Dec 2013 17:50:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.habitablezone.com/?p=41227#comment-28817</guid>
		<description>&quot;But don&#039;t let that fool you, I&#039;m really an okay guy.&quot;

&lt;img src=&quot;http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120120093509/alienanthology/images/a/ab/Carterburkealiens.gif&quot; alt=&quot;&quot; /&gt;

Yep, I posted here briefly a few years ago.  Wanna see my ID?

&lt;img src=&quot;http://props.steinschneider.com/aliens/carter_burke/carter_burke_01.jpg&quot; alt=&quot;.&quot; /&gt;



</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But don&#8217;t let that fool you, I&#8217;m really an okay guy.&#8221;</p>
<p><img src="http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120120093509/alienanthology/images/a/ab/Carterburkealiens.gif" alt="" /></p>
<p>Yep, I posted here briefly a few years ago.  Wanna see my ID?</p>
<p><img src="http://props.steinschneider.com/aliens/carter_burke/carter_burke_01.jpg" alt="." /></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: podrock</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/12/09/navys-new-anti-sub-plane-vastly-inferior-to-the-old-one-p-8-compared-with-p-3/#comment-28813</link>
		<dc:creator>podrock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Dec 2013 06:43:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.habitablezone.com/?p=41227#comment-28813</guid>
		<description>With all the rights and privileges, etc.

Welcome back, C, grab a chair next to the fire.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With all the rights and privileges, etc.</p>
<p>Welcome back, C, grab a chair next to the fire.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: RobVG</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/12/09/navys-new-anti-sub-plane-vastly-inferior-to-the-old-one-p-8-compared-with-p-3/#comment-28805</link>
		<dc:creator>RobVG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Dec 2013 04:58:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.habitablezone.com/?p=41227#comment-28805</guid>
		<description>Someone new? Welcome- come and set a spell.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Someone new? Welcome- come and set a spell.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: CJB</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/12/09/navys-new-anti-sub-plane-vastly-inferior-to-the-old-one-p-8-compared-with-p-3/#comment-28804</link>
		<dc:creator>CJB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Dec 2013 03:48:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.habitablezone.com/?p=41227#comment-28804</guid>
		<description>The Orion was designed as the world&#039;s first turboprop airliner, and was consequently way over-built.  They weren&#039;t taking any chances on this new-fangled technology. They still use them to fly into hurricanes, the planes are perfect for the job, and bulletproof.

This sounds a lot like the A-10 Thunderbolt story.  Piper originally bid to build this plane, and their design was essentially an updated P-51.  They reasoned you don&#039;t need a jet to knock out tanks, and a proven prop design would not only be cheaper to build and operate, but would be more suitable for tactical reasons;  but the Air Force brass insisted on a jet attack aircraft for the ground support role.

The Warthog turned to out to be a fine performer, albeit very expensive.  Too bad. It would have been wonderful to see Mustangs in our skies again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Orion was designed as the world&#8217;s first turboprop airliner, and was consequently way over-built.  They weren&#8217;t taking any chances on this new-fangled technology. They still use them to fly into hurricanes, the planes are perfect for the job, and bulletproof.</p>
<p>This sounds a lot like the A-10 Thunderbolt story.  Piper originally bid to build this plane, and their design was essentially an updated P-51.  They reasoned you don&#8217;t need a jet to knock out tanks, and a proven prop design would not only be cheaper to build and operate, but would be more suitable for tactical reasons;  but the Air Force brass insisted on a jet attack aircraft for the ground support role.</p>
<p>The Warthog turned to out to be a fine performer, albeit very expensive.  Too bad. It would have been wonderful to see Mustangs in our skies again.</p>
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		<title>By: bowser</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/12/09/navys-new-anti-sub-plane-vastly-inferior-to-the-old-one-p-8-compared-with-p-3/#comment-28800</link>
		<dc:creator>bowser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Dec 2013 01:14:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.habitablezone.com/?p=41227#comment-28800</guid>
		<description>P-51s were common, flying high and low over the area.  Then F-86s were added to the mix.  One saw these several times a week, both always flying in pairs.  I still think the P-51 and F-86 were the most beautiful airplanes ever built, but that&#039;s probably just a generational thing.

At the same time period, &#039;47, &#039;48, &#039;49 and early &#039;50 there were many convoluted contrails high overhead indicating many smaller and larger airplanes maneuvering if not violently at least with some abandon.  (I think the advent of the Korean Conflict diverted that activity to the Far East.)

And the chaff, small aluminum strips, was abundant on the ground.  As I recall those strips were 3/4&quot; to 1&quot; wide and shorter than that used in WWII, about 3 to 4&quot;s long.  The Air Force was either lucky or at least suppressed publicity, because very often the bundles of strips did not come undone and one could find clumps of 8 oz to a pound of them rather easily.  Those suckers had to hit someone once in a while.  The strips, though, were very thin and an 8 oz clump fairly large.

Different times.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P-51s were common, flying high and low over the area.  Then F-86s were added to the mix.  One saw these several times a week, both always flying in pairs.  I still think the P-51 and F-86 were the most beautiful airplanes ever built, but that&#8217;s probably just a generational thing.</p>
<p>At the same time period, &#8217;47, &#8217;48, &#8217;49 and early &#8217;50 there were many convoluted contrails high overhead indicating many smaller and larger airplanes maneuvering if not violently at least with some abandon.  (I think the advent of the Korean Conflict diverted that activity to the Far East.)</p>
<p>And the chaff, small aluminum strips, was abundant on the ground.  As I recall those strips were 3/4&#8243; to 1&#8243; wide and shorter than that used in WWII, about 3 to 4&#8243;s long.  The Air Force was either lucky or at least suppressed publicity, because very often the bundles of strips did not come undone and one could find clumps of 8 oz to a pound of them rather easily.  Those suckers had to hit someone once in a while.  The strips, though, were very thin and an 8 oz clump fairly large.</p>
<p>Different times.</p>
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		<title>By: TB</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2013/12/09/navys-new-anti-sub-plane-vastly-inferior-to-the-old-one-p-8-compared-with-p-3/#comment-28799</link>
		<dc:creator>TB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Dec 2013 22:38:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.habitablezone.com/?p=41227#comment-28799</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;When I moved out here, the P-3 was a regular feature in our skies.&lt;/p&gt;

Based near here, they got to be familiar old friends flying overhead.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I moved out here, the P-3 was a regular feature in our skies.</p>
<p>Based near here, they got to be familiar old friends flying overhead.</p>
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