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	<title>Comments on: US President Obama warns Moscow there will be &#8220;costs&#8221; for any military intervention in Ukraine</title>
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	<link>https://habitablezone.com/2014/03/01/us-president-obama-warns-moscow-there-will-be-costs-for-any-military-intervention-in-ukraine/</link>
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		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2014/03/01/us-president-obama-warns-moscow-there-will-be-costs-for-any-military-intervention-in-ukraine/#comment-30178</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Mar 2014 02:15:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.habitablezone.com/?p=43511#comment-30178</guid>
		<description>The situation isn&#039;t that much different.

&quot;I looked the man in the eye. I found him to be very straight forward and trustworthy and we had a very good dialogue.&quot;  -GWB

There&#039;s not much we can do to prevent Putin from doing anything he wants.  All we can do is make him wish he hadn&#039;t done it.

Of course, in order to do anything at all, both the Europeans and the American Congress and people have to be on board. I wouldn&#039;t hold my breath.  The Europeans don&#039;t want to rock the boat; they&#039;re too chickenshit to hurt their economies or piss off the Russkis, and the Congress will do anything that makes Obama look bad, or will mean trouble for his his Democratic successor. They didn&#039;t back him on Syria, I don&#039;t think they will in Europe. They better hope they lose in 2016 if Putin really goes on the warpath, or they&#039;re going to have to deliver.

Hopefully, Putin will pay for his short term gains with long term losses.  Whatever is left of Ukraine after he&#039;s done carving it up will be dying to join NATO, as will the rest of the former satellite states, and maybe the Europeans will start rearming.  

No one will trust Putin any more, and his trade partners in W EU will start looking for other sources of oil, if they&#039;re smart.  Of course, smart always takes a back seat when corporate profit is threatened. Putin will rebuild the old Soviet empire with cheap oil, not tanks.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The situation isn&#8217;t that much different.</p>
<p>&#8220;I looked the man in the eye. I found him to be very straight forward and trustworthy and we had a very good dialogue.&#8221;  -GWB</p>
<p>There&#8217;s not much we can do to prevent Putin from doing anything he wants.  All we can do is make him wish he hadn&#8217;t done it.</p>
<p>Of course, in order to do anything at all, both the Europeans and the American Congress and people have to be on board. I wouldn&#8217;t hold my breath.  The Europeans don&#8217;t want to rock the boat; they&#8217;re too chickenshit to hurt their economies or piss off the Russkis, and the Congress will do anything that makes Obama look bad, or will mean trouble for his his Democratic successor. They didn&#8217;t back him on Syria, I don&#8217;t think they will in Europe. They better hope they lose in 2016 if Putin really goes on the warpath, or they&#8217;re going to have to deliver.</p>
<p>Hopefully, Putin will pay for his short term gains with long term losses.  Whatever is left of Ukraine after he&#8217;s done carving it up will be dying to join NATO, as will the rest of the former satellite states, and maybe the Europeans will start rearming.  </p>
<p>No one will trust Putin any more, and his trade partners in W EU will start looking for other sources of oil, if they&#8217;re smart.  Of course, smart always takes a back seat when corporate profit is threatened. Putin will rebuild the old Soviet empire with cheap oil, not tanks.</p>
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		<title>By: RobVG</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2014/03/01/us-president-obama-warns-moscow-there-will-be-costs-for-any-military-intervention-in-ukraine/#comment-30161</link>
		<dc:creator>RobVG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Mar 2014 01:27:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.habitablezone.com/?p=43511#comment-30161</guid>
		<description>I wonder what the reaction would be if Obama had enacted the sanctions and said absolutely nothing. n/t</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder what the reaction would be if Obama had enacted the sanctions and said absolutely nothing. n/t</p>
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		<title>By: DanS</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2014/03/01/us-president-obama-warns-moscow-there-will-be-costs-for-any-military-intervention-in-ukraine/#comment-30154</link>
		<dc:creator>DanS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2014 15:36:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.habitablezone.com/?p=43511#comment-30154</guid>
		<description>Huh.  (n/t)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Huh.  (n/t)</p>
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		<title>By: bowser</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2014/03/01/us-president-obama-warns-moscow-there-will-be-costs-for-any-military-intervention-in-ukraine/#comment-30150</link>
		<dc:creator>bowser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2014 22:23:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.habitablezone.com/?p=43511#comment-30150</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve found someone who apparently believes a supply line which is thousands of miles long, crosses and recrosses foreign borders and overflies God knows how many countries, is as viable as one which crosses nothing.

With Iraq and Afghanistan staring us in the face, providing evidence of the dangers of relying upon others for logistic support, one who regards a long, complicated logistical line as efficient is refreshing.  However, I did give you credit for more sense.  I&#039;ll chalk it up to simply wanting to disagree with me, not feeble mindedness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve found someone who apparently believes a supply line which is thousands of miles long, crosses and recrosses foreign borders and overflies God knows how many countries, is as viable as one which crosses nothing.</p>
<p>With Iraq and Afghanistan staring us in the face, providing evidence of the dangers of relying upon others for logistic support, one who regards a long, complicated logistical line as efficient is refreshing.  However, I did give you credit for more sense.  I&#8217;ll chalk it up to simply wanting to disagree with me, not feeble mindedness.</p>
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		<title>By: DanS</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2014/03/01/us-president-obama-warns-moscow-there-will-be-costs-for-any-military-intervention-in-ukraine/#comment-30138</link>
		<dc:creator>DanS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2014 10:25:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.habitablezone.com/?p=43511#comment-30138</guid>
		<description>I like my fantasy better.  (n/t)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like my fantasy better.  (n/t)</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: bowser</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2014/03/01/us-president-obama-warns-moscow-there-will-be-costs-for-any-military-intervention-in-ukraine/#comment-30055</link>
		<dc:creator>bowser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2014 01:16:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.habitablezone.com/?p=43511#comment-30055</guid>
		<description>The logistics along any of those paths for any military intervention would be so expensive, complicated, long, fragile (take your pick) as to render anything effective impossible if opposed.

Obama can just bluster, and that is hardly productive.   Especially when blustering about something which isn&#039;t any legitimate concern to the US.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The logistics along any of those paths for any military intervention would be so expensive, complicated, long, fragile (take your pick) as to render anything effective impossible if opposed.</p>
<p>Obama can just bluster, and that is hardly productive.   Especially when blustering about something which isn&#8217;t any legitimate concern to the US.</p>
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		<title>By: DanS</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2014/03/01/us-president-obama-warns-moscow-there-will-be-costs-for-any-military-intervention-in-ukraine/#comment-30047</link>
		<dc:creator>DanS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Mar 2014 16:50:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.habitablezone.com/?p=43511#comment-30047</guid>
		<description>For a tactician, that&#039;s the easy part.

Nord, in Northeast Greenland, and/or perhaps a Scandinavian site, including Norway&#039;s Svalbard Island, would work.  In those locations, though, the environment would be harsh for humans and machines alike, but still expensively doable.

From the immediate south, we have Ankara, situated in a fairly reputable NATO nation, but doubtless expensive to setup a strike-force staging area.  Bulgaria, Armenia, Hungary and Romania might be coerced into assisting the mighty West, but who knows?  All these have somewhat large Muslim communities, and the security of those regions might come into question.

...But there are really so many other points from which to choose, including northern Greece, or just stepping back into Iraq, and perhaps taking down Syria.

The tough part is economics and politics, where civilian and government backing, from the US, as well as the host nation&#039;s/nations&#039; populations would be required.

I&#039;m also leaving everything on the table, including nuclear force.

...And, as a powerful nation, we are already perceived to be arrogant, whether individually we are or are not.  When visiting any nation, for any reason, it is up to the individual American to prove himself to be beautiful, or at least not ugly, and many times over.  Of course, having this blessed ability is yet another sign of arrogance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For a tactician, that&#8217;s the easy part.</p>
<p>Nord, in Northeast Greenland, and/or perhaps a Scandinavian site, including Norway&#8217;s Svalbard Island, would work.  In those locations, though, the environment would be harsh for humans and machines alike, but still expensively doable.</p>
<p>From the immediate south, we have Ankara, situated in a fairly reputable NATO nation, but doubtless expensive to setup a strike-force staging area.  Bulgaria, Armenia, Hungary and Romania might be coerced into assisting the mighty West, but who knows?  All these have somewhat large Muslim communities, and the security of those regions might come into question.</p>
<p>&#8230;But there are really so many other points from which to choose, including northern Greece, or just stepping back into Iraq, and perhaps taking down Syria.</p>
<p>The tough part is economics and politics, where civilian and government backing, from the US, as well as the host nation&#8217;s/nations&#8217; populations would be required.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m also leaving everything on the table, including nuclear force.</p>
<p>&#8230;And, as a powerful nation, we are already perceived to be arrogant, whether individually we are or are not.  When visiting any nation, for any reason, it is up to the individual American to prove himself to be beautiful, or at least not ugly, and many times over.  Of course, having this blessed ability is yet another sign of arrogance.</p>
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		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2014/03/01/us-president-obama-warns-moscow-there-will-be-costs-for-any-military-intervention-in-ukraine/#comment-30021</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2014 14:17:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.habitablezone.com/?p=43511#comment-30021</guid>
		<description>That was precisely the point I was trying to make.  The US and Europe have no way of militarily intervening in the Ukraine, and not much of a motive either. The Russians have the assets and the motivation.  The only thing the West can do is to make Russia pay a diplomatic and economic price, which is what Obama&#039;s and EU comments do.  I wouldn&#039;t call that arrogance. Failure to condemn Russian actions would amount to tacit acceptance and encouragement of them.  We are limited in what we can do or say, but we have to do something.

Arrogance involves tanks and helicopters.  Obama&#039;s critics on the Right will interpret his reluctance to initiate pointless hostilities in the Ukraine as weakness, while those on the Left seem desperate to characterize any action on his part as provocation.  But this is entirely a Russian show, there is nothing anyone else could have done to prevent it, or to stop it.  Russia will pay a price, she will see many of her former satellites eager to strengthen ties with NATO and reluctant to embrace further dependence on her, and Europe may reconsider rearming to Cold War Levels. 

Whether or not Russia is willing to pay that price is entirely up to her. It will be a long time before Russia will be able to regain the economic and military power she had during the Cold War, and re-establishing that power will be expensive. If that is the course Putin wants to embark on now, he is going to find that it involves paying a price, a price the emerging power centers in Russia may not all be willing to pay. The world has suddenly become less stable, but the arrogance is all on Putin, and on our own opportunists and demagogues so eager to seize his actions to help further their own petty self-serving domestic agendas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That was precisely the point I was trying to make.  The US and Europe have no way of militarily intervening in the Ukraine, and not much of a motive either. The Russians have the assets and the motivation.  The only thing the West can do is to make Russia pay a diplomatic and economic price, which is what Obama&#8217;s and EU comments do.  I wouldn&#8217;t call that arrogance. Failure to condemn Russian actions would amount to tacit acceptance and encouragement of them.  We are limited in what we can do or say, but we have to do something.</p>
<p>Arrogance involves tanks and helicopters.  Obama&#8217;s critics on the Right will interpret his reluctance to initiate pointless hostilities in the Ukraine as weakness, while those on the Left seem desperate to characterize any action on his part as provocation.  But this is entirely a Russian show, there is nothing anyone else could have done to prevent it, or to stop it.  Russia will pay a price, she will see many of her former satellites eager to strengthen ties with NATO and reluctant to embrace further dependence on her, and Europe may reconsider rearming to Cold War Levels. </p>
<p>Whether or not Russia is willing to pay that price is entirely up to her. It will be a long time before Russia will be able to regain the economic and military power she had during the Cold War, and re-establishing that power will be expensive. If that is the course Putin wants to embark on now, he is going to find that it involves paying a price, a price the emerging power centers in Russia may not all be willing to pay. The world has suddenly become less stable, but the arrogance is all on Putin, and on our own opportunists and demagogues so eager to seize his actions to help further their own petty self-serving domestic agendas.</p>
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		<title>By: bowser</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2014/03/01/us-president-obama-warns-moscow-there-will-be-costs-for-any-military-intervention-in-ukraine/#comment-30019</link>
		<dc:creator>bowser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2014 05:58:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.habitablezone.com/?p=43511#comment-30019</guid>
		<description>Of course Russia has an interest in what happens in the Ukraine, and the United States may have an interest but no excuse for intervening in the process.  Obama threatening is an abuse of US power and influence.

The British Prime Minister talked about military intervention, which is obvious.  Check a map and tell me how the US or Britain could effectively intervene, unless it airlifted a limited amount of supplies.

I just think Obama&#039;s statement is an indication of national arrogance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course Russia has an interest in what happens in the Ukraine, and the United States may have an interest but no excuse for intervening in the process.  Obama threatening is an abuse of US power and influence.</p>
<p>The British Prime Minister talked about military intervention, which is obvious.  Check a map and tell me how the US or Britain could effectively intervene, unless it airlifted a limited amount of supplies.</p>
<p>I just think Obama&#8217;s statement is an indication of national arrogance.</p>
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		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2014/03/01/us-president-obama-warns-moscow-there-will-be-costs-for-any-military-intervention-in-ukraine/#comment-30002</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Mar 2014 18:32:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.habitablezone.com/?p=43511#comment-30002</guid>
		<description>any more than LBJ could have stopped the USSR in Czechoslovakia in 1968, or Eisenhower could have stopped it in Hungary in 1956.

Other than that, I think you&#039;ve got the situation sussed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>any more than LBJ could have stopped the USSR in Czechoslovakia in 1968, or Eisenhower could have stopped it in Hungary in 1956.</p>
<p>Other than that, I think you&#8217;ve got the situation sussed.</p>
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