Comments on: HMS Victory https://habitablezone.com/2014/09/20/hms-victory/ Tue, 07 Apr 2026 19:18:10 -0700 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: ER https://habitablezone.com/2014/09/20/hms-victory/#comment-31863 ER Mon, 22 Sep 2014 00:12:07 +0000 https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=47443#comment-31863 the ship of the line pictured in Bowzer’s post. She was what what was called a "second rater", "first raters", like HMS Victory, were 100+ guns. Fourth and fifth raters (60+ guns) were considered big enough to fight "on the line". For comparison, the USS Constitution, 44, (Old Ironsides) was a very large and powerful frigate, and although one of the most advanced and deadly ships of her class in her time, was still not considered strong enough to serve in the line. In the late 18th and early 19th century, the typical and most common size for a ship of the line was a third rater, a 74 gun two-decker. Many second and first rate ships proved to be poor sailors, and were often cut back to this size by removing a gun deck and shortening the rig, to make them more manageable. But this often led to problems too. A vessel designed for one size might not work well if arbitrarily altered to other dimensions. It had a lot to do with the captain's preferences, too. Yankee men-of-war were notoriously over-sparred and over-gunned, and although respected and admired by the Royal Navy, usually had their rigs cut back and some guns removed if they were captured, in an effort to improve their performance and durability. In modern parlance, a ship of the line would be called a battleship today. Frigates served the role of modern-day cruisers; pickets, scouts, escorts, recon, and commerce raiding. They were better suited to independent action than fleet duty. Today, a frigate is a small ship, smaller than a destroyer. The ship I served on in 1968 was called a "frigate", but since that time, ship nomenclature has been changed to fit uniform NATO standards. Nowadays, she would be reclassified as a destroyer. http://focsl.wordpress.com/tag/hms-nile/ the ship of the line pictured in Bowzer’s post. She was what what was called a “second rater”, “first raters”, like HMS Victory, were 100+ guns. Fourth and fifth raters (60+ guns) were considered big enough to fight “on the line”. For comparison, the USS Constitution, 44, (Old Ironsides) was a very large and powerful frigate, and although one of the most advanced and deadly ships of her class in her time, was still not considered strong enough to serve in the line. In the late 18th and early 19th century, the typical and most common size for a ship of the line was a third rater, a 74 gun two-decker.

Many second and first rate ships proved to be poor sailors, and were often cut back to this size by removing a gun deck and shortening the rig, to make them more manageable. But this often led to problems too. A vessel designed for one size might not work well if arbitrarily altered to other dimensions. It had a lot to do with the captain’s preferences, too. Yankee men-of-war were notoriously over-sparred and over-gunned, and although respected and admired by the Royal Navy, usually had their rigs cut back and some guns removed if they were captured, in an effort to improve their performance and durability.

In modern parlance, a ship of the line would be called a battleship today. Frigates served the role of modern-day cruisers; pickets, scouts, escorts, recon, and commerce raiding. They were better suited to independent action than fleet duty.

Today, a frigate is a small ship, smaller than a destroyer. The ship I served on in 1968 was called a “frigate”, but since that time, ship nomenclature has been changed to fit uniform NATO standards. Nowadays, she would be reclassified as a destroyer.

http://focsl.wordpress.com/tag/hms-nile/

]]> By: mcfly https://habitablezone.com/2014/09/20/hms-victory/#comment-31857 mcfly Sun, 21 Sep 2014 01:39:46 +0000 https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=47443#comment-31857 But then, they also weren't the giants you guys are talking about. A couple of tidbits I recall from my readings about such vessels... Sand would apparently be spread on the deck before battle, because once the wood was sloshing with blood it was almost impossible to remain on your feet. There was an officer (whose name escapes me, hope it's not someone I should know) who was killed not by the impact of a cannonball, but rather by the head of a sailor who'd just been blown to peices by a cannonball. Ahh, good times... But then, they also weren’t the giants you guys are talking about.

A couple of tidbits I recall from my readings about such vessels…

Sand would apparently be spread on the deck before battle, because once the wood was sloshing with blood it was almost impossible to remain on your feet.

There was an officer (whose name escapes me, hope it’s not someone I should know) who was killed not by the impact of a cannonball, but rather by the head of a sailor who’d just been blown to peices by a cannonball. Ahh, good times…

]]> By: ER https://habitablezone.com/2014/09/20/hms-victory/#comment-31855 ER Sat, 20 Sep 2014 16:10:28 +0000 https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=47443#comment-31855 <blockquote>For one thing this century will in after ages be considered to have done in a superb manner and one thing I think only. . . it will always be said of us, with unabated reverence,`They built ships of the Line.' Take it all in all, a ship of the Line is the most honorable thing that man as a gregarious animal has ever produced. By himself, unhelped, he can do better things than ships of the line; he can make poems and pictures, and other such concentrations of what is best in him. But as a being living in flocks, and hammering out, with alternate strokes and mutual agreement, what is necessary for him in those flocks to get or produce the ship of the line is his first work. Into that he has put as much of his human patience, common sense, forethought, experimental philosophy, self control, habits of order and obedience, thoroughly wrought handwork, defiance of brute elements, careless courage, careful patriotism, and calm expectation of the judgement of God, as can well be put into a space of 300 feet long by 80 broad. And I am thankful to have lived in an age when I could see this thing so done. </blockquote> At the height of the Napoleonic Wars, England maintained a fleet of over a hundred ships of the line, plus vast fleets of frigates, sloops-of-war and supply and auxiliary ships needed to support them. The cost to build and maintain each of these massive vessels to the societies that had them was comparable to what we pay today for an aircraft carrier or missile submarine, except this was a pre-industrial world prior to steam, electricity, and mass production. These were the largest and most complex wooden sailing vessels ever built, indeed, they reached the architectural limit of wood and fiber and the musclepower required to operate them. And they were not designed for independent action, they were meant to fight in fleets, against other fleets, (the line of battle), hence their name. Noble sentiments and stirring words, to be sure, and yet, the solitary purpose for existence of the ship of the line was solely to hammer into ruined hulks other nations' ships of the line. It is all the evidence we need of the creativity and ingenuity, as well as the savagery of human beings. PS. Since these ships fought in line-ahead formation, alongside another line of opponents similarly deployed, gun crews were needed to man cannon only on the side of the ship facing the enemy. Guns on the other side were loaded and ready in the event a melee required firing a broadside on the other side. This happened very rarely, line on line engagements generated many casualties and much damage, but were usually not decisive. <img src="http://julyandavis.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/conway.jpg?w=640&h=480" alt="." />

For one thing this century will in after ages be considered to have done in a superb manner and one thing I think only. . . it will always be said of us, with unabated reverence,`They built ships of the Line.’ Take it all in all, a ship of the Line is the most honorable thing that man as a gregarious animal has ever produced. By himself, unhelped, he can do better things than ships of the line; he can make poems and pictures, and other such concentrations of what is best in him. But as a being living in flocks, and hammering out, with alternate strokes and mutual agreement, what is necessary for him in those flocks to get or produce the ship of the line is his first work. Into that he has put as much of his human patience, common sense, forethought, experimental philosophy, self control, habits of order and obedience, thoroughly wrought handwork, defiance of brute elements, careless courage, careful patriotism, and calm expectation of the judgement of God, as can well be put into a space of 300 feet long by 80 broad. And I am thankful to have lived in an age when I could see this thing so done.

At the height of the Napoleonic Wars, England maintained a fleet of over a hundred ships of the line, plus vast fleets of frigates, sloops-of-war and supply and auxiliary ships needed to support them. The cost to build and maintain each of these massive vessels to the societies that had them was comparable to what we pay today for an aircraft carrier or missile submarine, except this was a pre-industrial world prior to steam, electricity, and mass production. These were the largest and most complex wooden sailing vessels ever built, indeed, they reached the architectural limit of wood and fiber and the musclepower required to operate them. And they were not designed for independent action, they were meant to fight in fleets, against other fleets, (the line of battle), hence their name.

Noble sentiments and stirring words, to be sure, and yet, the solitary purpose for existence of the ship of the line was solely to hammer into ruined hulks other nations’ ships of the line. It is all the evidence we need of the creativity and ingenuity, as well as the savagery of human beings.

PS. Since these ships fought in line-ahead formation, alongside another line of opponents similarly deployed, gun crews were needed to man cannon only on the side of the ship facing the enemy. Guns on the other side were loaded and ready in the event a melee required firing a broadside on the other side. This happened very rarely, line on line engagements generated many casualties and much damage, but were usually not decisive.

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