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	<title>Comments on: The Pluto Wow, now in Living Color!</title>
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	<link>https://habitablezone.com/2015/09/24/the-pluto-wow-now-in-living-color/</link>
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		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2015/09/24/the-pluto-wow-now-in-living-color/#comment-33082</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Oct 2015 03:09:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=50646#comment-33082</guid>
		<description>But hedge your bets.

I&#039;ve been helping my wife with some simple algebra problems and I&#039;m amazed how much I&#039;ve forgotten.

&quot;It&#039;s my mind, Dave.  I&#039;m losing it.  I can feeeeeel it...&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But hedge your bets.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been helping my wife with some simple algebra problems and I&#8217;m amazed how much I&#8217;ve forgotten.</p>
<p>&#8220;It&#8217;s my mind, Dave.  I&#8217;m losing it.  I can feeeeeel it&#8230;&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2015/09/24/the-pluto-wow-now-in-living-color/#comment-33081</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Oct 2015 03:06:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=50646#comment-33081</guid>
		<description>In a grazing collision, any velocity orthogonal to the radius is the result of any residual orbital velocity the impactor may have had prior to the collision.  There will be a radial velocity vector in the direction of the impactee exactly equal to the escape velocity.  THAT energy comes from the object falling down the gravity well.  Its inescapable. Its Newton.

Now it is certainly possible that an enormous cloud of debris was ejected after the collision which collected in a ring about the primary, and eventually a body coalesced from that.  As I mentioned earlier, that&#039;s probably how our own moon formed.  

Its easy to think of this situation as if they were billiard balls striking glancing blows on the felt.  But billiard balls don&#039;t gravitationaly attract each other.

And it is dynamically impossible for two bodies to interact in such a way that they wind up in orbit about each other unless there is either a collision or some third body which provides the additional momentum and energy required.  Two bodies approaching from infinity will either collide, or swing about each other and go their separate ways. 

And don&#039;t forget, at least one of the bodies will probably be tidally disrupted by tidal forces prior to the collision. It would be like a melon being hit by a cloud of buckshot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In a grazing collision, any velocity orthogonal to the radius is the result of any residual orbital velocity the impactor may have had prior to the collision.  There will be a radial velocity vector in the direction of the impactee exactly equal to the escape velocity.  THAT energy comes from the object falling down the gravity well.  Its inescapable. Its Newton.</p>
<p>Now it is certainly possible that an enormous cloud of debris was ejected after the collision which collected in a ring about the primary, and eventually a body coalesced from that.  As I mentioned earlier, that&#8217;s probably how our own moon formed.  </p>
<p>Its easy to think of this situation as if they were billiard balls striking glancing blows on the felt.  But billiard balls don&#8217;t gravitationaly attract each other.</p>
<p>And it is dynamically impossible for two bodies to interact in such a way that they wind up in orbit about each other unless there is either a collision or some third body which provides the additional momentum and energy required.  Two bodies approaching from infinity will either collide, or swing about each other and go their separate ways. </p>
<p>And don&#8217;t forget, at least one of the bodies will probably be tidally disrupted by tidal forces prior to the collision. It would be like a melon being hit by a cloud of buckshot.</p>
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		<title>By: podrock</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2015/09/24/the-pluto-wow-now-in-living-color/#comment-33080</link>
		<dc:creator>podrock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Oct 2015 01:37:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=50646#comment-33080</guid>
		<description>I need a counter to my cognitive bias and I&#039;ve learned a lot from your input to our arm-waving.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I need a counter to my cognitive bias and I&#8217;ve learned a lot from your input to our arm-waving.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2015/09/24/the-pluto-wow-now-in-living-color/#comment-33073</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2015 23:39:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=50646#comment-33073</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re sure stubborn over a what&#039;s still a hypothetical situation, notwithstanding a bit more scientific certainty than before. But the vectors I visualize when you describe the inevitability of a terminal velocity equal to escape velocity don&#039;t add up. They&#039;re not all perpendicular to the impactee, and a high velocity approaching parallel to the direction of orbital motion (grazing) is 90 degrees to that &quot;inexorable&quot; pull. Add the vectors, man, add the vectors!

Plus, both partners in the dance are large bodies with significant momentum. Rather than a small impactor with insignificant mass, in the case of Pluto and Charon the moon has roughly a tenth the mass of its primary--largest such ratio in the System. 

If Charon was captured once upon a time by Pluto, then right there don&#039;t we have an example of a non-catastrophic rendezvous between two large free-flying objects? How in the worlds did that happen if two objects in space can&#039;t get close without being drawn into a deadly shattering embrace?

My final whack on the horse is to suggest that smaller lumpy bodies that haven&#039;t been vulcanized into solid objects by gravitational heating, might be more resilient in an impact, and might give and crumble rather than shatter. A collision of two bean bags rather than two billiard balls. Or even a billiard ball and bean bag.

Consider, grasshopper, that paper beats rock by enfolding it. Perhaps Pluto captured Charon not by shattering it, but by cushioning it. You know, lithobraking. Or maybe I mean cryobraking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re sure stubborn over a what&#8217;s still a hypothetical situation, notwithstanding a bit more scientific certainty than before. But the vectors I visualize when you describe the inevitability of a terminal velocity equal to escape velocity don&#8217;t add up. They&#8217;re not all perpendicular to the impactee, and a high velocity approaching parallel to the direction of orbital motion (grazing) is 90 degrees to that &#8220;inexorable&#8221; pull. Add the vectors, man, add the vectors!</p>
<p>Plus, both partners in the dance are large bodies with significant momentum. Rather than a small impactor with insignificant mass, in the case of Pluto and Charon the moon has roughly a tenth the mass of its primary&#8211;largest such ratio in the System. </p>
<p>If Charon was captured once upon a time by Pluto, then right there don&#8217;t we have an example of a non-catastrophic rendezvous between two large free-flying objects? How in the worlds did that happen if two objects in space can&#8217;t get close without being drawn into a deadly shattering embrace?</p>
<p>My final whack on the horse is to suggest that smaller lumpy bodies that haven&#8217;t been vulcanized into solid objects by gravitational heating, might be more resilient in an impact, and might give and crumble rather than shatter. A collision of two bean bags rather than two billiard balls. Or even a billiard ball and bean bag.</p>
<p>Consider, grasshopper, that paper beats rock by enfolding it. Perhaps Pluto captured Charon not by shattering it, but by cushioning it. You know, lithobraking. Or maybe I mean cryobraking.</p>
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		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2015/09/24/the-pluto-wow-now-in-living-color/#comment-33071</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Oct 2015 20:33:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=50646#comment-33071</guid>
		<description>But the velocity of the impactor must be at least the escape velocity of the impactee, even though orbital velocities &quot;out there&quot; are very much slower than nearer the sun.

So for example, if the earth were where Pluto is, an approaching meteor might come along at an orbital velocity comparable to Pluto&#039;s, which is slow (about 0.16 that of earth).

The &lt;em&gt;difference&lt;/em&gt; in orbital velocities between the two might be just a few meters per sec. But by the time that slow object fell down the gravity well, it would have sped up to 11 km/sec.

Now granted, Pluto is not as massive as earth, so it&#039;s escape velocity is only 1.2 km/sec.  But that is still faster than a speeding bullet.  Seen from a distance, the colliding worlds would kiss in slow motion, but to an unlucky observer at the point of impact, the incoming would approach at the muzzle velocity of an artillery shell.

http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/factsheet/plutofact.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But the velocity of the impactor must be at least the escape velocity of the impactee, even though orbital velocities &#8220;out there&#8221; are very much slower than nearer the sun.</p>
<p>So for example, if the earth were where Pluto is, an approaching meteor might come along at an orbital velocity comparable to Pluto&#8217;s, which is slow (about 0.16 that of earth).</p>
<p>The <em>difference</em> in orbital velocities between the two might be just a few meters per sec. But by the time that slow object fell down the gravity well, it would have sped up to 11 km/sec.</p>
<p>Now granted, Pluto is not as massive as earth, so it&#8217;s escape velocity is only 1.2 km/sec.  But that is still faster than a speeding bullet.  Seen from a distance, the colliding worlds would kiss in slow motion, but to an unlucky observer at the point of impact, the incoming would approach at the muzzle velocity of an artillery shell.</p>
<p><a href="http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/factsheet/plutofact.html" rel="nofollow">http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/factsheet/plutofact.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2015/09/24/the-pluto-wow-now-in-living-color/#comment-33070</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Oct 2015 19:33:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=50646#comment-33070</guid>
		<description>Both papers were definitely good reads, and of course I too found the blockquote interesting. The second article lays out in a concrete way what I was trying to express with my intuition about &quot;slow, grazing collisions&quot; (as you know, thanks). The Kuiper Belt isn&#039;t the inner solar system, and we need to check our assumptions at Neptune.

The first article was interesting for touching on that &quot;cryogenic realm&quot;, and it linked to another mind-blowing article: &lt;a href=&quot;http://space.io9.com/could-a-massive-collision-produce-a-subsurface-ocean-on-1719439790&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Could a Massive Collision Produce a Subsurface Ocean on Pluto?&lt;/a&gt; (io9&#039;s a consistently good read, isn&#039;t it?). Mlinar&#039;s theories seem plausible to this layman, and although they&#039;re still looking for the linear surface features that on Europa are believed to be a sign of a subsurface ocean, I have to think those polygonal markings in the smooth surfaces must be a sign of some fluidity underneath. Doesn&#039;t have to much, not an actual ocean sloshing around, but even convection is very interesting.

Thanks for the links, podrock.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Both papers were definitely good reads, and of course I too found the blockquote interesting. The second article lays out in a concrete way what I was trying to express with my intuition about &#8220;slow, grazing collisions&#8221; (as you know, thanks). The Kuiper Belt isn&#8217;t the inner solar system, and we need to check our assumptions at Neptune.</p>
<p>The first article was interesting for touching on that &#8220;cryogenic realm&#8221;, and it linked to another mind-blowing article: <a href="http://space.io9.com/could-a-massive-collision-produce-a-subsurface-ocean-on-1719439790" rel="nofollow">Could a Massive Collision Produce a Subsurface Ocean on Pluto?</a> (io9&#8242;s a consistently good read, isn&#8217;t it?). Mlinar&#8217;s theories seem plausible to this layman, and although they&#8217;re still looking for the linear surface features that on Europa are believed to be a sign of a subsurface ocean, I have to think those polygonal markings in the smooth surfaces must be a sign of some fluidity underneath. Doesn&#8217;t have to much, not an actual ocean sloshing around, but even convection is very interesting.</p>
<p>Thanks for the links, podrock.</p>
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		<title>By: podrock</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2015/09/24/the-pluto-wow-now-in-living-color/#comment-33069</link>
		<dc:creator>podrock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Oct 2015 17:57:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=50646#comment-33069</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://space.io9.com/heres-the-science-so-far-on-plutos-icy-mountains-and-bu-1718618581&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://space.io9.com/heres-the-science-so-far-on-plutos-icy-mountains-and-bu-1718618581&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;a href=&quot;http://space.io9.com/how-much-do-we-really-know-about-collisions-in-the-kuip-1720637251?utm_source=taboola&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://space.io9.com/how-much-do-we-really-know-about-collisions-in-the-kuip-1720637251?utm_source=taboola&lt;/a&gt;

I found this part interesting:

&quot;Impacts on the terrestrial planets and the moons of the giant planets are “hypervelocity” impacts, that is, the impact speeds are far greater than the speed of sound in the planet or moon, so the impacts are essentially explosions. Very roughly, hypervelocity impacts typically produce craters about 10 times bigger than the size of the impactor. Impacts on Pluto and Charon occur at typical speeds of 2 km/s, which is comparable to the speed of sound. Thus the impacts are barely hypervelocity.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://space.io9.com/heres-the-science-so-far-on-plutos-icy-mountains-and-bu-1718618581" rel="nofollow">http://space.io9.com/heres-the-science-so-far-on-plutos-icy-mountains-and-bu-1718618581</a></p>
<p><a href="http://space.io9.com/how-much-do-we-really-know-about-collisions-in-the-kuip-1720637251?utm_source=taboola" rel="nofollow">http://space.io9.com/how-much-do-we-really-know-about-collisions-in-the-kuip-1720637251?utm_source=taboola</a></p>
<p>I found this part interesting:</p>
<p>&#8220;Impacts on the terrestrial planets and the moons of the giant planets are “hypervelocity” impacts, that is, the impact speeds are far greater than the speed of sound in the planet or moon, so the impacts are essentially explosions. Very roughly, hypervelocity impacts typically produce craters about 10 times bigger than the size of the impactor. Impacts on Pluto and Charon occur at typical speeds of 2 km/s, which is comparable to the speed of sound. Thus the impacts are barely hypervelocity.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: RobVG</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2015/09/24/the-pluto-wow-now-in-living-color/#comment-33065</link>
		<dc:creator>RobVG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2015 21:35:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=50646#comment-33065</guid>
		<description>Just a little &quot;bump&quot;. Still curious. n/t</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just a little &#8220;bump&#8221;. Still curious. n/t</p>
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		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2015/09/24/the-pluto-wow-now-in-living-color/#comment-32830</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2015 14:11:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=50646#comment-32830</guid>
		<description>One of the smallest and most remote outposts in the solar system is also one of the most varied and unexpected.  And remember, Pluto isn&#039;t simply at the farthest frontier, it is only the first world, the gateway to the Kuiper Belt, which extends much further out, deep into the cold and dark.

As always, the Universe always seems to be much more complicated and interesting than it really needs to be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the smallest and most remote outposts in the solar system is also one of the most varied and unexpected.  And remember, Pluto isn&#8217;t simply at the farthest frontier, it is only the first world, the gateway to the Kuiper Belt, which extends much further out, deep into the cold and dark.</p>
<p>As always, the Universe always seems to be much more complicated and interesting than it really needs to be.</p>
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		<title>By: RobVG</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2015/09/24/the-pluto-wow-now-in-living-color/#comment-32827</link>
		<dc:creator>RobVG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2015 03:56:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=50646#comment-32827</guid>
		<description>Interesting to note the plain must be younger than the surrounding areas pockmarked with craters. Possibly forming rapidly?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting to note the plain must be younger than the surrounding areas pockmarked with craters. Possibly forming rapidly?</p>
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