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	<title>Comments on: Yup, that&#8217;s us.</title>
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		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2016/05/10/yup-thats-us/#comment-36580</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 May 2016 17:11:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=57512#comment-36580</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll let you have the last word, I have already made my position clear, and there&#039;s nothing more I can add.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll let you have the last word, I have already made my position clear, and there&#8217;s nothing more I can add.</p>
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		<title>By: BuckGalaxy</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2016/05/10/yup-thats-us/#comment-36577</link>
		<dc:creator>BuckGalaxy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 May 2016 14:37:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=57512#comment-36577</guid>
		<description>I got all that ER.  I knew all that before we ever started this discussion.  I understood all that decades ago. I have made clear I understand that over and over again. 

&quot;You can talk about (misogyny in muslim cultures) all you want.&quot;

But WE cannot talk about it because YOU cannot talk about it.  All you can talk about is potential consequences of talking about it.  Unfortunately, you do not consider the real consequences of not talking about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I got all that ER.  I knew all that before we ever started this discussion.  I understood all that decades ago. I have made clear I understand that over and over again. </p>
<p>&#8220;You can talk about (misogyny in muslim cultures) all you want.&#8221;</p>
<p>But WE cannot talk about it because YOU cannot talk about it.  All you can talk about is potential consequences of talking about it.  Unfortunately, you do not consider the real consequences of not talking about.</p>
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		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2016/05/10/yup-thats-us/#comment-36576</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 May 2016 04:28:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=57512#comment-36576</guid>
		<description>He may not be interested in persecution himself, but he knows the people who vote for him tend to feel that way.  They need an enemy, they need someone to hate, they need a scapegoat they can blame the vanishing of the American Dream on. And he is providing them with one.

I really can&#039;t believe you don&#039;t see this, Rob.  Blaming the foreigner, the other, the stranger, for all our problems is the oldest tactic in the book.   Divide and conquer. Set one tribe against another, sow discord. Hate, anger and fear are powerful emotions, easily manipulated.

Trump himself may not be a racist, but I&#039;d be willing to bet half of the people who support him are, or can be moved to the persecution of others if they can be convinced those others are the people responsible for their lives unraveling. America needs its traitors, they need to believe they&#039;ve been stabbed in the back and now they&#039;ve had enough and they are going to take their country back.  Bigotry is not restricted to the color of the skin, or to national origin, or to social or economic class, or to rural vs urban populations.  Just listen to the man talk....how can you miss it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He may not be interested in persecution himself, but he knows the people who vote for him tend to feel that way.  They need an enemy, they need someone to hate, they need a scapegoat they can blame the vanishing of the American Dream on. And he is providing them with one.</p>
<p>I really can&#8217;t believe you don&#8217;t see this, Rob.  Blaming the foreigner, the other, the stranger, for all our problems is the oldest tactic in the book.   Divide and conquer. Set one tribe against another, sow discord. Hate, anger and fear are powerful emotions, easily manipulated.</p>
<p>Trump himself may not be a racist, but I&#8217;d be willing to bet half of the people who support him are, or can be moved to the persecution of others if they can be convinced those others are the people responsible for their lives unraveling. America needs its traitors, they need to believe they&#8217;ve been stabbed in the back and now they&#8217;ve had enough and they are going to take their country back.  Bigotry is not restricted to the color of the skin, or to national origin, or to social or economic class, or to rural vs urban populations.  Just listen to the man talk&#8230;.how can you miss it?</p>
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		<title>By: RobVG</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2016/05/10/yup-thats-us/#comment-36572</link>
		<dc:creator>RobVG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 May 2016 03:40:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=57512#comment-36572</guid>
		<description>Do you see Trumps comments as persecution? n/t</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do you see Trumps comments as persecution? n/t</p>
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		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2016/05/10/yup-thats-us/#comment-36571</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 May 2016 03:29:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=57512#comment-36571</guid>
		<description>But you can&#039;t use it as a justification for a policy which treats one religion differently from another. You can&#039;t base laws and statutes on it.  Regardless of what the Koran says about women, you can&#039;t use that as a reason to craft your immigration law.  You can&#039;t use it to restrict people from jobs, government programs, voting rights, residency permits or work papers, or visas, or any of the other criteria being proposed to discriminate against Muslims.

You can certainly make discrimination against women illegal, but you can&#039;t make believing in discrimination against women illegal.  And you certainly can&#039;t discriminate against people because they belong to a religion that has misogyny in its ancient texts.  All you can do with Law is prevent them from engaging in those practices while they live here. 

You can&#039;t say &quot;This person&#039;s rights must be restricted because he believes in a religion that holds unpopular positions we do not believe in.&quot;  And you certainly can&#039;t do that when the State (or our own religious fanatics) arbitrarily decides just what the offending religion is supposed to believe in.

Or to put it another way, you can make practicing FGM a crime, or Sharia Law invalid, but you can&#039;t oppress people simply because some people in that religion believe that nonsense, especially if you are the one deciding what it is they believe.

That&#039;s what&#039;s so dangerous about Trump and people like him.  They don&#039;t say &quot;Sharia Law is banned in the US.&quot;  They say &quot;people who believe in Sharia law should be banned from the US.&quot;  And &quot;we get to decide whether or not they believe in Sharia law, they don&#039;t.&quot;

Not all devout Muslims believe in the infallibility of the Koran and in its literal interpretation, any more than all Christians or Jews believe in slavery, polygamy, human sacrifice, Creationism, military aggression (against the Canaanites), eye-for-an-eye punishment, the Talmudic dietary laws, or any of the the other teachings of the Old Testament or ancient tribal practices found there.

Pointing out logical or moral flaws in another religion (without the understanding that all religions have logical or moral flaws) is the first step in demonizing that religion so that it can be oppressed.  It leads to reasoning like this:



&lt;blockquote&gt;Many, not all, Christians are Creationists
and…they are Creationists largely due to being Christian. That’s because the Bible specifically teaches the Genesis account as the literal truth. 
&lt;/blockquote&gt;


That is not only not true of most American Muslims, it is not even true of most Muslims in the world.  It may be widespread belief in the more tribal and traditional areas of the middle east and north Africa, but it simply can&#039;t be hung on anybody who is a Muslim, any more than you can hang terrorism against abortion providers and the teaching of Creationism on all Christians.

Maybe you, Buck Galaxy, are capable of making these subtle distinctions, but this kind of reasoning is being used to stir up the more ignorant and fearful members of our society into exercising discrimination against minorities--for the purpose of furthering a political and economic agenda.  Its the same tactic the Nazis used against the Jews and the Southern bigots used against blacks.  Its the same tactic now being employed against Mexicans:  &quot;These people are evil, they&#039;re criminals, we&#039;re right to hate them, and anyone who doesn&#039;t hate them too is obviously our enemy and worthy of our hate as well.&quot;  Of course, this doesn&#039;t mean Jews, Negroes,  Mexicans or Muslims can&#039;t be dangerous or anti-social, but if they commit crimes they should be prosecuted as individuals, not have their entire communities persecuted.

 Maybe that&#039;s why Liberals react so violently and predictably when they hear this poison.  Yes, we&#039;re politically correct and proud of it. Its the same old shit fascists have always used to divide and conquer. It always starts out as common sense self-defense and honest patriotism, and soon ends up in the Gulag and the killing fields and the gas chambers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But you can&#8217;t use it as a justification for a policy which treats one religion differently from another. You can&#8217;t base laws and statutes on it.  Regardless of what the Koran says about women, you can&#8217;t use that as a reason to craft your immigration law.  You can&#8217;t use it to restrict people from jobs, government programs, voting rights, residency permits or work papers, or visas, or any of the other criteria being proposed to discriminate against Muslims.</p>
<p>You can certainly make discrimination against women illegal, but you can&#8217;t make believing in discrimination against women illegal.  And you certainly can&#8217;t discriminate against people because they belong to a religion that has misogyny in its ancient texts.  All you can do with Law is prevent them from engaging in those practices while they live here. </p>
<p>You can&#8217;t say &#8220;This person&#8217;s rights must be restricted because he believes in a religion that holds unpopular positions we do not believe in.&#8221;  And you certainly can&#8217;t do that when the State (or our own religious fanatics) arbitrarily decides just what the offending religion is supposed to believe in.</p>
<p>Or to put it another way, you can make practicing FGM a crime, or Sharia Law invalid, but you can&#8217;t oppress people simply because some people in that religion believe that nonsense, especially if you are the one deciding what it is they believe.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s what&#8217;s so dangerous about Trump and people like him.  They don&#8217;t say &#8220;Sharia Law is banned in the US.&#8221;  They say &#8220;people who believe in Sharia law should be banned from the US.&#8221;  And &#8220;we get to decide whether or not they believe in Sharia law, they don&#8217;t.&#8221;</p>
<p>Not all devout Muslims believe in the infallibility of the Koran and in its literal interpretation, any more than all Christians or Jews believe in slavery, polygamy, human sacrifice, Creationism, military aggression (against the Canaanites), eye-for-an-eye punishment, the Talmudic dietary laws, or any of the the other teachings of the Old Testament or ancient tribal practices found there.</p>
<p>Pointing out logical or moral flaws in another religion (without the understanding that all religions have logical or moral flaws) is the first step in demonizing that religion so that it can be oppressed.  It leads to reasoning like this:</p>
<blockquote><p>Many, not all, Christians are Creationists<br />
and…they are Creationists largely due to being Christian. That’s because the Bible specifically teaches the Genesis account as the literal truth.
</p></blockquote>
<p>That is not only not true of most American Muslims, it is not even true of most Muslims in the world.  It may be widespread belief in the more tribal and traditional areas of the middle east and north Africa, but it simply can&#8217;t be hung on anybody who is a Muslim, any more than you can hang terrorism against abortion providers and the teaching of Creationism on all Christians.</p>
<p>Maybe you, Buck Galaxy, are capable of making these subtle distinctions, but this kind of reasoning is being used to stir up the more ignorant and fearful members of our society into exercising discrimination against minorities&#8211;for the purpose of furthering a political and economic agenda.  Its the same tactic the Nazis used against the Jews and the Southern bigots used against blacks.  Its the same tactic now being employed against Mexicans:  &#8220;These people are evil, they&#8217;re criminals, we&#8217;re right to hate them, and anyone who doesn&#8217;t hate them too is obviously our enemy and worthy of our hate as well.&#8221;  Of course, this doesn&#8217;t mean Jews, Negroes,  Mexicans or Muslims can&#8217;t be dangerous or anti-social, but if they commit crimes they should be prosecuted as individuals, not have their entire communities persecuted.</p>
<p> Maybe that&#8217;s why Liberals react so violently and predictably when they hear this poison.  Yes, we&#8217;re politically correct and proud of it. Its the same old shit fascists have always used to divide and conquer. It always starts out as common sense self-defense and honest patriotism, and soon ends up in the Gulag and the killing fields and the gas chambers.</p>
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		<title>By: BuckGalaxy</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2016/05/10/yup-thats-us/#comment-36570</link>
		<dc:creator>BuckGalaxy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 May 2016 00:26:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=57512#comment-36570</guid>
		<description>Many, not all, muslim men are misogynists...
and
...they are misogynists largely due to being muslim.  

That&#039;s because the Koran specifically teaches the inferiority of women.  Google it.  

Is that demonstrably provable reality something that is ok to talk about?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Many, not all, muslim men are misogynists&#8230;<br />
and<br />
&#8230;they are misogynists largely due to being muslim.  </p>
<p>That&#8217;s because the Koran specifically teaches the inferiority of women.  Google it.  </p>
<p>Is that demonstrably provable reality something that is ok to talk about?</p>
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		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2016/05/10/yup-thats-us/#comment-36569</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 May 2016 23:52:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=57512#comment-36569</guid>
		<description>...&quot;some Muslims are savages&quot;... 
and
...&quot;they are savages &lt;em&gt;because&lt;/em&gt; they are Muslim&quot;.

It may sound like I&#039;m nitpicking, but that&#039;s the same game Trump is playing and that his flock is lapping up.  When you call him on it he looks hurt, abused, misunderstood and answers meekly, &quot;I guess some of them are good people.&quot; 

You know, like those Mexican rapists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;&#8221;some Muslims are savages&#8221;&#8230;<br />
and<br />
&#8230;&#8221;they are savages <em>because</em> they are Muslim&#8221;.</p>
<p>It may sound like I&#8217;m nitpicking, but that&#8217;s the same game Trump is playing and that his flock is lapping up.  When you call him on it he looks hurt, abused, misunderstood and answers meekly, &#8220;I guess some of them are good people.&#8221; </p>
<p>You know, like those Mexican rapists.</p>
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		<title>By: BuckGalaxy</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2016/05/10/yup-thats-us/#comment-36568</link>
		<dc:creator>BuckGalaxy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 May 2016 23:28:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=57512#comment-36568</guid>
		<description>I have a tremendous amount of respect for your intellect and opinion, ER.  Your repeated attacks on my motives and misrepresentation of my arguments is beneath you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a tremendous amount of respect for your intellect and opinion, ER.  Your repeated attacks on my motives and misrepresentation of my arguments is beneath you.</p>
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		<title>By: BuckGalaxy</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2016/05/10/yup-thats-us/#comment-36566</link>
		<dc:creator>BuckGalaxy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 May 2016 22:34:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=57512#comment-36566</guid>
		<description>This is like some endless loop where everytime I make a specific comment, I am accused of blanket attacks on entire groups.  On this thread we&#039;ve seen the same argument twice.  First against the OP by claiming it was accusing ALL LIBERALS of that double standard.  Now I am condemning an &quot;entire civilization.&quot;  I am condemning the human rights abuses, not the entire civilization.  GOT IT!?

 </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is like some endless loop where everytime I make a specific comment, I am accused of blanket attacks on entire groups.  On this thread we&#8217;ve seen the same argument twice.  First against the OP by claiming it was accusing ALL LIBERALS of that double standard.  Now I am condemning an &#8220;entire civilization.&#8221;  I am condemning the human rights abuses, not the entire civilization.  GOT IT!?</p>
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		<title>By: BuckGalaxy</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2016/05/10/yup-thats-us/#comment-36565</link>
		<dc:creator>BuckGalaxy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 May 2016 22:30:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=57512#comment-36565</guid>
		<description>First of all, I am not a conservative, I am a progressive liberal like yourself.  Where we differ is my progressive values do not end at the borders of islamic nations.  All the equivalence that you attempt to make between republicans/christians and muslims is merely an attempt to excuse horrific behavior in other societies.

For a moment, let&#039;s discuss the human rights abuses against women, gays and non muslims in muslim nations.  Let&#039;s focus on that and not the idiocy of American chrisitians or republicans, because whatever they do is not an excuse to look the other way at the human rights violations in muslim countries.  Is that reasonable?  

Do you think it&#039;s &quot;just fine&quot; that women are forced to cover themelves head to toe or be punished by men?  Do you think it is &quot;just fine&quot;  that they cannot drive, vote, or even leave their homes without a man present?  If the answer is no, then stop making excuses for it.

As for religion having some special protection in our society (not that that has anything to do with the human rights violations in THEIR countries - which is what I&#039;m talking about), religion and political speech ARE protected EQUALLY by our constitution.  There is no special rights for religion to avoid being criticized. yes their right to practice is protected.  They do not have a right to not be debunked.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First of all, I am not a conservative, I am a progressive liberal like yourself.  Where we differ is my progressive values do not end at the borders of islamic nations.  All the equivalence that you attempt to make between republicans/christians and muslims is merely an attempt to excuse horrific behavior in other societies.</p>
<p>For a moment, let&#8217;s discuss the human rights abuses against women, gays and non muslims in muslim nations.  Let&#8217;s focus on that and not the idiocy of American chrisitians or republicans, because whatever they do is not an excuse to look the other way at the human rights violations in muslim countries.  Is that reasonable?  </p>
<p>Do you think it&#8217;s &#8220;just fine&#8221; that women are forced to cover themelves head to toe or be punished by men?  Do you think it is &#8220;just fine&#8221;  that they cannot drive, vote, or even leave their homes without a man present?  If the answer is no, then stop making excuses for it.</p>
<p>As for religion having some special protection in our society (not that that has anything to do with the human rights violations in THEIR countries &#8211; which is what I&#8217;m talking about), religion and political speech ARE protected EQUALLY by our constitution.  There is no special rights for religion to avoid being criticized. yes their right to practice is protected.  They do not have a right to not be debunked.</p>
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