The news came out much later (Cheney admitted it in an interview) that The Bush administration had long been planning an invasion of Iraq, since even before 9/11. They just needed an excuse, and WMDs were the justification used to get the American public (including me and Hillary) to back them.

You see, Rob, attacking Iraq was a really bad idea, just like going into Vietnam. But it could be forgiven if the people behind it really felt it was the right thing to do. Our reasons for going into Vietnam were mistaken, but they were sincere: we really thought Communism was on the march in Asia. JFK and LBJ could be forgiven considering what they believed at the time. The same could be said for Iraq. Even if the Bush gang knew all along there were no WMDs, its easy to see how they could have talked themselves, through ignorance not malice, into thinking crushing Iraq would somehow turn things around in the middle east.

But when it failed, I could see them trying to throw all the blame onto the next convenient Democrat, just to save their miserable hides and prolong their self-serving domestic economic mismanagement, was unforgiveable. And soon, opposition to their war became a tool with which to attack all Liberals. We seen that gag before, “They don’t agree with us, they must be unpatriotic, they must be commies.”

From that moment on, Conservatives, to me, weren’t just guys with silly ideas of how to run a foreign policy, a government or an economy. I could suddenly see that they were truly selfish and evil. They were just lawyers and businessmen and careerists who didn’t give a damn about anyone or anything else. All they really cared about was policies (primarily economic ones) that benefited their class interests.

And then I found out about AGW……

I was saying Obama wasn’t the one to blame. And it’s obvious we can’t “give” democracy to those oppressed.

But Conservatives want to dodge their responsibility by blaming Obama for “pulling out” prematurely. What fucking balls!. Obama’s problem, what he can really be blamed for legitimately, was not pulling out immediately.

We should have gotten out when we learned there were no WMDs. We missed another chance when Saddam was captured, and another when he was executed. Bin Ladin’s execution had nothing to do with Iraq, but it would have given us a perfect excuse to declare victory there once and for all and get out.The surge was only a temporary fix, we couldn’t keep surging forever.

The whole Iraq enterprise was propped up on the morally bankrupt, politically impotent and corrupt puppet state Bush put in place, a state which further divided and aggravated existing divisions in Iraqi society to the the point of bursting. No number of GIs could hold that place together unless we just moved in and ran it. The only way that government was going to stay in power indefinitely was if we occupied the place indefinitely, continuing pouring blood and money down that hole, just to cover for the profound stupidity of the Neocons in the White House and their chicken hawk bully-boy asshole buddies in the Republican Party. Even the “Sunni Miracle” was accomplished only by bribing the warlords and militias not to fight us, and the minute the cash payments stopped, they moved to Syria and set up Isis. We left Iraq with a functioning oil industry, plenty of cash, a supposed democratically elected government, and a magnificently equipped and trained army. If they won’t fight for their country, why should we?

We have only two options in Iraq: get out, now, no questions asked; or keep a 50000 man garrison there indefinitely, rule with an iron fist, and prop up the local gangster with billions a year.

Maybe we should have tried, that policy seems to be working for the Israelis in Gaza and the West Bank, but I don’t think it would have worked for us.

I am really fed up with the GOP blaming Obama for Iraq. But after all, they blamed the Democrats for the Bush Recession. They’re already blaming Obama for Trump. Its only a matter of time before they start blaming him for global warming.

Gotta call bullshit on this. I haven’t seen anyone dismiss Buck’s comments on that matter. Many of us have engaged him in discussion, and at least two of us have explicitly expressed some measure of agreement in principle (yes I’m treading lightly because I don’t want to put words in anyone’s mouth). I can’t see how you could support the assertion that Buck “can’t be accepted.”

And you can’t take anyone seriously who says our mistake was in pulling out.

Jeez Louise…that’s like a guy in prison saying his mistake was in failing to murder all the witnesses to his crime.

The current political climate has changed both you and the others. Even Buck can’t be accepted for having a bright emission line on the Muslim issue. It’s like you’re wearing band filters so you don’t have to look at what you consider outliers. It’s also why you couldn’t understand my reply.

I was very uncomfortable during the build up to the Iraq war. No one could say with confidence it was the path we should take. And now, it’s dishonest to say that the mess in the middle east wasn’t the result of what we did. And you can’t take anyone seriously who says our mistake was in pulling out.

One more thing. I was surprised when you called me a lier:

“I don’t buy your denial of bigotry and racism for one instant. Not on Trump’s behalf, and frankly, not on yours.”

Either you just haven’t been paying attention all along or, you have changed. Take your pick.

But the real war criminal, the real traitor, was Ronald Reagan. Kennedy’s Bay of Pigs could be explained away as cowardice, betrayal and incompetence. Viet Nam was a failure to read what was really happening, and an attempt to convince France to join Nato by saving one of her colonies. But Iran-Contra was the crime of the century. And remember, of all these events we have listed here, only in CIA drug-smuggling, Contra nun-raping and arms-for-hostages-swaps-with-terrorists Iran-Contra were people actually tried, convicted and sentenced to prison for the parts they played.

Yes, I’ve noticed Conservatives view things a bit differently as well.

I agree that the Bush Administration, including Tony Blair, are war criminals. And the sustained and constant lying, while not technically illegal in a democracy, was sure as hell a betrayal of America.

And to me it’s the facts that say that, not a partisan ideology. There are objective legal definitions of war crimes, and they committed war crimes.

But I’ve noticed that Conservatives view things a bit differently.

Trump loosening your tongue?