<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Europe to Help Build NASA&#8217;s Moon-orbiting Gateway Space Station . . .</title>
	<atom:link href="http://habitablezone.com/2020/11/02/europe-to-help-build-nasas-moon-orbiting-gateway-space-station/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://habitablezone.com/2020/11/02/europe-to-help-build-nasas-moon-orbiting-gateway-space-station/</link>
	<description></description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 06 Apr 2026 12:03:37 -0700</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2020/11/02/europe-to-help-build-nasas-moon-orbiting-gateway-space-station/#comment-46037</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2020 04:07:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=85150#comment-46037</guid>
		<description>We&#039;ve never been there

We don&#039;t know what&#039;s there.

If these tubes exist, we don&#039;t know what their properties are, or what it will take to exploit them.

These alleged lunar resources have never been proven to exist, and even if they do exist, they have not been located or mapped.

Even if these resources and structures exist exactly as you&#039;ve outlined them here, it will still take an enormous effort just to survey the area and set up the infrastructure to develop them.

Read about the Panama Canal.  Before the first shovelful of dirt was moved we had to drain the swamps and kill the mosquitoes so we could build the towns where the workers would live who would unload the ships that were bringing in the steam shovels. And so on. And so on. Digging the ditch was chicken shit compared to all the prep we had to do first.

Remember Arthur C Clarke&#039;s &quot;The Deep Range&quot;?  We were going to mine the ocean floor and live in domed cities on the abyssal plains, farming fish and plankton and algae to feed the world.  That&#039;s not impossible either, but it still didn&#039;t happen, and its a lot closer than the moon.

Remember how orbital satellites were going to pay for themselves with all the zero-g manufacturing we would be able to do? The perfectly spherical ball bearings? That never happened either.

Just because something is not impossible doesn&#039;t mean it is inevitable. And it certainly doesn&#039;t mean it will be profitable.  Think, fission power, the supersonic transport, flying cars...its all space groupie wet dreams.  We abandoned those things; not because they were impossible, but because they weren&#039;t profitable.

Some things are just too complicated, or too expensive, or too dangerous.  And some things will turn out to be unnecessary because we&#039;ll find easier, cheaper and safer ways of doing them, ways we can&#039;t even imagine right now.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We&#8217;ve never been there</p>
<p>We don&#8217;t know what&#8217;s there.</p>
<p>If these tubes exist, we don&#8217;t know what their properties are, or what it will take to exploit them.</p>
<p>These alleged lunar resources have never been proven to exist, and even if they do exist, they have not been located or mapped.</p>
<p>Even if these resources and structures exist exactly as you&#8217;ve outlined them here, it will still take an enormous effort just to survey the area and set up the infrastructure to develop them.</p>
<p>Read about the Panama Canal.  Before the first shovelful of dirt was moved we had to drain the swamps and kill the mosquitoes so we could build the towns where the workers would live who would unload the ships that were bringing in the steam shovels. And so on. And so on. Digging the ditch was chicken shit compared to all the prep we had to do first.</p>
<p>Remember Arthur C Clarke&#8217;s &#8220;The Deep Range&#8221;?  We were going to mine the ocean floor and live in domed cities on the abyssal plains, farming fish and plankton and algae to feed the world.  That&#8217;s not impossible either, but it still didn&#8217;t happen, and its a lot closer than the moon.</p>
<p>Remember how orbital satellites were going to pay for themselves with all the zero-g manufacturing we would be able to do? The perfectly spherical ball bearings? That never happened either.</p>
<p>Just because something is not impossible doesn&#8217;t mean it is inevitable. And it certainly doesn&#8217;t mean it will be profitable.  Think, fission power, the supersonic transport, flying cars&#8230;its all space groupie wet dreams.  We abandoned those things; not because they were impossible, but because they weren&#8217;t profitable.</p>
<p>Some things are just too complicated, or too expensive, or too dangerous.  And some things will turn out to be unnecessary because we&#8217;ll find easier, cheaper and safer ways of doing them, ways we can&#8217;t even imagine right now.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Vitruvius</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2020/11/02/europe-to-help-build-nasas-moon-orbiting-gateway-space-station/#comment-46016</link>
		<dc:creator>Vitruvius</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2020 08:03:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=85150#comment-46016</guid>
		<description>The &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_lava_tube&quot; title=&quot;Lunar lava tube&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;lava tubes&lt;/a&gt; &lt;em&gt;are&lt;/em&gt; important - and I highly doubt the Moon is geologically active enough for them to be anything similiar to the Hawaiian ones.  &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonization_of_the_Moon#Lunar_lava_tubes&quot; title=&quot;Colonisation of the Moon&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Barring the copious amounts of He-3 deposited by solar wind on the surface (vital to future fusion power plants), the ore left behind by numerous asteroid impacts (vital to civil and aerospace engineering), and the low thrust-to-weight ratio (vital for on-off world transport), it still possesses massive amounts of unused land space - space we could use for agriculture or power production, freeing up space in orbit&lt;/a&gt;.  Colonising the move, especially its lava tubes, would provide useful and essential practical info and training for &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martian_lava_tube&quot; title=&quot;Martian lava tube&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;doing the same on Mars&lt;/a&gt;.

We do seek profit from the stars, true - but profit&#039;s not why we travel.


*EDIT*  Here&#039;s some linked pictures of Lunar Lava Tubes.  Tell me we can&#039;t &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agartha&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Agartha&lt;/a&gt; that shit:

&lt;a href=&quot;https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-31953052&quot; title=&quot;Lava tubes safe enough for Moon base&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;img src=&quot;http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/81745000/jpg/_81745026_81745025.jpg&quot; alt=&quot;&quot; /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;a href=&quot;https://www.science20.com/robert_inventor/gardening_on_the_moon_summits_of_sunlight_and_vast_caves_better_than_mars_but_not_better_than_deserts-180516?ICID=ref_fark&quot; title=&quot;An Astronaut Gardener On The Moon - Summits Of Sunlight And Vast Lunar Caves In Low Gravity&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;img src=&quot;https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/50194b74-b0dc-441e-898a-5fdf88085f24/dasw1ty-c78101a6-21e8-47a7-bfc0-6f58ea85c889.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJpc3MiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwic3ViIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsImF1ZCI6WyJ1cm46c2VydmljZTpmaWxlLmRvd25sb2FkIl0sIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiIvZi81MDE5NGI3NC1iMGRjLTQ0MWUtODk4YS01ZmRmODgwODVmMjQvZGFzdzF0eS1jNzgxMDFhNi0yMWU4LTQ3YTctYmZjMC02ZjU4ZWE4NWM4ODkucG5nIn1dXX0.0oBw5pR4pH3UvaTzKEA2Py9YjEFeR969EJp2NACy9jI&quot; alt=&quot;&quot; /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;a href=&quot;https://earthscience.stackexchange.com/questions/12497/what-conditions-could-produce-50-km-long-lava-tubes&quot; title=&quot;What conditions could produce 50 km long lava tubes?&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;img src=&quot;https://i.stack.imgur.com/AUjbV.png&quot; alt=&quot;&quot; /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_lava_tube" title="Lunar lava tube" rel="nofollow">lava tubes</a> <em>are</em> important &#8211; and I highly doubt the Moon is geologically active enough for them to be anything similiar to the Hawaiian ones.  <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonization_of_the_Moon#Lunar_lava_tubes" title="Colonisation of the Moon" rel="nofollow">Barring the copious amounts of He-3 deposited by solar wind on the surface (vital to future fusion power plants), the ore left behind by numerous asteroid impacts (vital to civil and aerospace engineering), and the low thrust-to-weight ratio (vital for on-off world transport), it still possesses massive amounts of unused land space &#8211; space we could use for agriculture or power production, freeing up space in orbit</a>.  Colonising the move, especially its lava tubes, would provide useful and essential practical info and training for <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martian_lava_tube" title="Martian lava tube" rel="nofollow">doing the same on Mars</a>.</p>
<p>We do seek profit from the stars, true &#8211; but profit&#8217;s not why we travel.</p>
<p>*EDIT*  Here&#8217;s some linked pictures of Lunar Lava Tubes.  Tell me we can&#8217;t <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agartha" rel="nofollow">Agartha</a> that shit:</p>
<p><a href="https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-31953052" title="Lava tubes safe enough for Moon base" rel="nofollow"><img src="http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/81745000/jpg/_81745026_81745025.jpg" alt="" /></a></p>
<p><a href="https://www.science20.com/robert_inventor/gardening_on_the_moon_summits_of_sunlight_and_vast_caves_better_than_mars_but_not_better_than_deserts-180516?ICID=ref_fark" title="An Astronaut Gardener On The Moon - Summits Of Sunlight And Vast Lunar Caves In Low Gravity" rel="nofollow"><img src="https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/50194b74-b0dc-441e-898a-5fdf88085f24/dasw1ty-c78101a6-21e8-47a7-bfc0-6f58ea85c889.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJpc3MiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwic3ViIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsImF1ZCI6WyJ1cm46c2VydmljZTpmaWxlLmRvd25sb2FkIl0sIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiIvZi81MDE5NGI3NC1iMGRjLTQ0MWUtODk4YS01ZmRmODgwODVmMjQvZGFzdzF0eS1jNzgxMDFhNi0yMWU4LTQ3YTctYmZjMC02ZjU4ZWE4NWM4ODkucG5nIn1dXX0.0oBw5pR4pH3UvaTzKEA2Py9YjEFeR969EJp2NACy9jI" alt="" /></a></p>
<p><a href="https://earthscience.stackexchange.com/questions/12497/what-conditions-could-produce-50-km-long-lava-tubes" title="What conditions could produce 50 km long lava tubes?" rel="nofollow"><img src="https://i.stack.imgur.com/AUjbV.png" alt="" /></a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Vitruvius</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2020/11/02/europe-to-help-build-nasas-moon-orbiting-gateway-space-station/#comment-46015</link>
		<dc:creator>Vitruvius</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2020 07:55:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=85150#comment-46015</guid>
		<description>Gotta love those world that could&#039;ve been</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gotta love those world that could&#8217;ve been</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2020/11/02/europe-to-help-build-nasas-moon-orbiting-gateway-space-station/#comment-46002</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2020 04:22:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=85150#comment-46002</guid>
		<description>No, the question is how useful they will be to colonists, and how much effort it will take to develop them.

We cannot let our limited knowledge of these formations be used as a justification for 
an extremely expensive program that may not go anywhere.

Remember all those golden cities and friendly natives ready to be converted to
Christ that were used to justify the conquest of the New World?

And there are lava tubes in Hawaii, too, but no one&#039;s putting condos in them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, the question is how useful they will be to colonists, and how much effort it will take to develop them.</p>
<p>We cannot let our limited knowledge of these formations be used as a justification for<br />
an extremely expensive program that may not go anywhere.</p>
<p>Remember all those golden cities and friendly natives ready to be converted to<br />
Christ that were used to justify the conquest of the New World?</p>
<p>And there are lava tubes in Hawaii, too, but no one&#8217;s putting condos in them.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: RL</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2020/11/02/europe-to-help-build-nasas-moon-orbiting-gateway-space-station/#comment-46001</link>
		<dc:creator>RL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2020 01:15:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=85150#comment-46001</guid>
		<description>Asteroid impacts have punched holes into them that have allowed us to peek down into them from orbit. They are there and have been observed. The only question is what they look like inside- how large the open area is....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Asteroid impacts have punched holes into them that have allowed us to peek down into them from orbit. They are there and have been observed. The only question is what they look like inside- how large the open area is&#8230;.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2020/11/02/europe-to-help-build-nasas-moon-orbiting-gateway-space-station/#comment-45996</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2020 16:02:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=85150#comment-45996</guid>
		<description>It may indeed have advantages over an LEO station as an interplanetary mission staging area.

I just think this obsession with going back to the moon is going to suck all our space program dry, like the Shuttle did.  As for the moon being a reservoir of resources, I&#039;ll believe it when it is demonstrated to me with hard numbers.  

The only thing I know for sure that the moon has plenty of is gravity.  Every kilogram of reaction mass needed to brake for landing on the moon,  as well as every kilogram needed to claw back out of its gravity well, is going to have to be first lifted up out of earth&#039;s well. And that&#039;s just propellant.  We still haven&#039;t even looked at the cost of payload.

And that&#039;s not even counting the energy expense of building, supplying, operating and maintaining a lunar base as well as any lunar orbital stations needed to support it.

As for all this talk about using the lunar lava tubes that MIGHT exist in order to learn how to use the Martian lava tubes that MIGHT exist...well, I don&#039;t buy it and I certainly don&#039;t want to pay for it, with either delta-v or delta-dollars.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It may indeed have advantages over an LEO station as an interplanetary mission staging area.</p>
<p>I just think this obsession with going back to the moon is going to suck all our space program dry, like the Shuttle did.  As for the moon being a reservoir of resources, I&#8217;ll believe it when it is demonstrated to me with hard numbers.  </p>
<p>The only thing I know for sure that the moon has plenty of is gravity.  Every kilogram of reaction mass needed to brake for landing on the moon,  as well as every kilogram needed to claw back out of its gravity well, is going to have to be first lifted up out of earth&#8217;s well. And that&#8217;s just propellant.  We still haven&#8217;t even looked at the cost of payload.</p>
<p>And that&#8217;s not even counting the energy expense of building, supplying, operating and maintaining a lunar base as well as any lunar orbital stations needed to support it.</p>
<p>As for all this talk about using the lunar lava tubes that MIGHT exist in order to learn how to use the Martian lava tubes that MIGHT exist&#8230;well, I don&#8217;t buy it and I certainly don&#8217;t want to pay for it, with either delta-v or delta-dollars.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: DanS</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2020/11/02/europe-to-help-build-nasas-moon-orbiting-gateway-space-station/#comment-45990</link>
		<dc:creator>DanS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2020 18:12:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=85150#comment-45990</guid>
		<description>From an s-f pov...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From an s-f pov&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Vitruvius</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2020/11/02/europe-to-help-build-nasas-moon-orbiting-gateway-space-station/#comment-45981</link>
		<dc:creator>Vitruvius</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2020 04:05:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=85150#comment-45981</guid>
		<description>An updated space plan from ISP LLC!

&lt;a href=&quot;https://integratedspaceanalytics.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;img src=&quot;https://www.wired.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/ISP-5-1-9c_FINAL_30x48v2_Print1.jpg&quot; alt=&quot;Integrated Space Plan, Modern Version&quot; /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An updated space plan from ISP LLC!</p>
<p><a href="https://integratedspaceanalytics.com/" rel="nofollow"><img src="https://www.wired.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/ISP-5-1-9c_FINAL_30x48v2_Print1.jpg" alt="Integrated Space Plan, Modern Version" /></a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: RL</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2020/11/02/europe-to-help-build-nasas-moon-orbiting-gateway-space-station/#comment-45968</link>
		<dc:creator>RL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2020 21:51:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=85150#comment-45968</guid>
		<description>There is much to be learned in the process of going to the moon that would benefit a longer voyage to Mars.
There is much to be learned at the moon that would benefit an expedition to Mars.

One of the things that should be an area of great study on the moon when we go back are the giant lava tube caves likely 100s of meters across and many kilometers long- there are many of them. They would provide a possible shelter for future human habitats - protection from micrometeorites and radiation.

Mars also has similar lava tubes, that would provide the same benefits lessons learned on the moon could greatly accelerate exploration of Mars.

There are countless other good science (and some engineering) reasons to do the moon first- but the events of the past few weeks are catching up to me... and I need a nap...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is much to be learned in the process of going to the moon that would benefit a longer voyage to Mars.<br />
There is much to be learned at the moon that would benefit an expedition to Mars.</p>
<p>One of the things that should be an area of great study on the moon when we go back are the giant lava tube caves likely 100s of meters across and many kilometers long- there are many of them. They would provide a possible shelter for future human habitats &#8211; protection from micrometeorites and radiation.</p>
<p>Mars also has similar lava tubes, that would provide the same benefits lessons learned on the moon could greatly accelerate exploration of Mars.</p>
<p>There are countless other good science (and some engineering) reasons to do the moon first- but the events of the past few weeks are catching up to me&#8230; and I need a nap&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Vitruvius</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2020/11/02/europe-to-help-build-nasas-moon-orbiting-gateway-space-station/#comment-45963</link>
		<dc:creator>Vitruvius</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2020 21:28:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=85150#comment-45963</guid>
		<description>The Rockwell International Integrated Space Plan, from the 20th Century.  We may be behind schedule, but I believe we will catch up.

&lt;a href=&quot;https://cdn.makezine.com/uploads/2013/07/integratedspaceplan2color.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;img alt=&quot;&quot; src=&quot;https://cdn.makezine.com/uploads/2013/07/integratedspaceplan2color.png&quot; title=&quot;Rockwell International Integrated Space Plan (Vectorised and Colored)&quot; class=&quot;aligncenter&quot; width=&quot;1285&quot; height=&quot;2104&quot; /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Rockwell International Integrated Space Plan, from the 20th Century.  We may be behind schedule, but I believe we will catch up.</p>
<p><a href="https://cdn.makezine.com/uploads/2013/07/integratedspaceplan2color.pdf" rel="nofollow"><img alt="" src="https://cdn.makezine.com/uploads/2013/07/integratedspaceplan2color.png" title="Rockwell International Integrated Space Plan (Vectorised and Colored)" class="aligncenter" width="1285" height="2104" /></a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
