First off: the party is not the people.

No shit, sherlock!
Just 2 hours before you posted your little distorted version of reality I made a post pointing out an example of a Republican taking a moral stance and speaking out… I welcome and respect those very few Republicans that have taken a stand against this fascist coup attempt. So you are actually starting off with a strawman argument here, and then go on to accuse me of doing the same… This makes it very difficult to take you seriously.

It became clear a long time ago in American politics that whatever the Red or Blue corners spit out is different than what they’re made of. I don’t believe for a second that your average Republican supports the far-right any more than the Dems do. Several candidates did compete with Diaper Don for the Republican ticket this year, and if they had won, most of us would have breathed a sigh of relief. Don’t strawman your fellow man, RL – you have a bad habit of vilifying people based on the actions of others.

Donald Trump has maintained around a 90% approval rating among republicans throughout most of the past 4 years. Republicans overwhelmingly voted for him in 2016 and 2020. The republican establishment, and republicans in congress KNOW he has the support of the vast majority of the party and so they show slavish devotion and defend and amplify his attacks on democracy. Trumpism (Which is just fascism with a low IQ) has taken over the republican party.

I am no fan of Romney, but of all the republicans in congress he was the only one that took a stand in the impeachment- for that he gets a little credit- but mostly he went along with Trump’s agenda.

Don’t strawman your fellow man, RL – you have a bad habit of vilifying people based on the actions of others.

This is a first for the zone, you create a strawman in order to accuse me of creating a strawman- a recursive strawman? There ARE a few republicans that did the right thing…eventually… and I posted respectfully about one of them just prior to your post.

Those few republicans that did take a stand against Trump should be lauded – and I applaud them for doing so. I have not been flaming against them… I have been directing my flames at those that actively support Trump, those that defend him, those that remain silent: Qui tacet consentiret.

All the conservatives of the zone – except SDG- were supporters and defenders of Trump. RobVG has continually denied that Trump is doing anything wrong- asserted repeatedly that claims that the President that caters to white supremacists is a racist are liberal slander.

Second: The king is beholden to the barons, not the peasants. Once someone from either side is in office, there is very little the average american can do to counter his influence, save speak to our local land lords, and hope they act favorably on our behalf (money helps).

My ire has been directed at those ‘peasants’ that spoke up in SUPPORT of the actions of the wannabe king… those that remained silent and accepted the atrocities with not a word of objection. Those that voted for this demagogue -In short the VAST MAJORITY of republicans.

Third: You have called for blood. Holy Hell, you have called for blood. You want hyperbole? Every other post you make, you’re calling for the “evil Trump Supporters” to suffer in new and creative ways. I already called you out for that here (https://www.habitablezone.com/2020/06/22/seek-out-people-that-disagree-with-you/), in my response. And that was just one thread. You have a problem.

No, I have not. I have called for them to be held responsible for their actions. They fanned the flames of this madness, and I do hope they get burned- it is the only way they might learn. They deserve to be ostracized, to be treated with contempt- to be reminded of their criminal stupidity until the day they die.

Fourth: Show me those photos. “if you had been on at the time” is a common phrase I’m hearing from you, and it seems you’re using it as a base support for whatever you post.

Wow, that’s an odd battle for you to pick… especially with me.
Took just a couple minutes to find this thread: https://habitablezone.com/2017/01/21/the-march-on-dc-dwarfed-the-inauguration-attendance/
The image I posted at the bottom of the thread is now broken since photobucket pulled a scandalous move and suddenly started holding everyone’s images hostage unless you paid an outrageous fee…

But if you really NEED proof and think it will somehow change the facts we are discussing, here you go:
Women’s march:

Science march:


Climate march

March for our lives

There were others, some more local ones… does any of this have anything to do with the topic at hand? Do you need me to post receipts for my donations to the ACLU, Union of Concerned Scientists, numerous candidates for congress and the presidency? Or somehow document the volunteer work I did? Would it be somehow pertinent to this discussion? Or were you just hoping to score some points calling me a liar?

There are repentant Republicans. Repentance is difficult, when people like you are calling for blood. Noone wants to be marched to the stocks, and have their name dragged through the mud as their price for freedom. This isn’t Salem – leave them their name! Doing otherwise – doing what you do know – that’s the sign of smug, self-centered idiocy. Best case scenario, you’re the pot to their kettle.

I have not attacked the repentant republicans… NONE of the zone’s conservatives are repentant… (SDG has nothing to be repentant about since he NEVER supported Trump).
To the contrary- FrankC went full white nationalist, Jody proudly declared herself to be Deplorable , RobVG actively defended Trump on here, SteveS and TB went to the comments section of conservative blogs to preach to the choir about how we can’t let the libs take down Trump…

They are perfectly happy with the destruction they voted for, if only because it pissed off libs.

Most politicians have “zero” political experience. Their way in office is due to their business connections, not their political level. Trump and the reds are no exception. While the cursus honorum can and should be followed, it’s main route nowadays seems to be leveling up connections as fast as possible. The barons will support the most favorable, not the righteous.

Seriously? Of course when politicians FIRST take an office they have no previous experience, by definition… but to use that as a justification for elevating a reality show actor directly to leader of the free world is – to put it mildly- insane. Republicans railed about Obama’s ‘inexperience’, when he had served in congress… Trump not only had no experience, but he had no interest in public service… his political history was only trying to de-legitimize the first african american president with the racist birther conspiracy.

Seventh: Don’t give me that “If I knew, I wouldn’t have” bullshit. Before his first election, Clinton had the Whitewater Controversy. Before his second, he had Chinagate, DOMA, and the NAFTA signatures. You knew. You knew, and you did the very thing you’re accusing Republicans of – “turning a blind eye”. Obama supported the PATRIOT act, and bills increasing his power, before both terms. You knew.

I didn’t “give you that If I knew, I wouldn’t have bullshit”… you are just really trying to stretch and contort reality to claim ‘both sides are equally bad’, that is just bullshit and you know it…

This president has made even NIXON look like a choirboy, and has caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of americans. His racism was undeniable BEFORE the 2016 election, as was his corruption, his misogyny his astounding ignorance, his authoritarian attitudes, his delusional narcissism and his love of war crimes…

If you voted for that, then there is something deeply wrong with you.

I’ll forgive you, the same time I forgave the repentant Republicans: the moment they stopped spreading hate. It wasn’t all of them, but they’re not the representative of their whole party. They are NOT their brother’s keeper.

Again, I may have policy differences with repentant republicans… but If they are taking a stand against this president I am glad to have them on the same side of that issue, and welcome them… where are they?

I see them on TV news shows, so they do exist- I love the Lincoln Project – but where are they in congress? For decades the GOP has been fostering extremism, and catering to its most extreme, bigoted members- and so we have a bunch of spineless ignorant conspiracy theorists in the positions of power in the GOP… The repentant are a small minority of the republican party.

The Trump supporters on this forum (ie all the republicans except one) were HAPPY to support the Muslim ban, and paint all Muslims with the same brush.
It makes no sense to claim that I am ‘painting them with the same brush’, when they poured the paint on the floor and rolled around naked in it- I am simply pointing what color of paint they are covered in.

The sad part is, this is talk from your generation. I’m guessing you grew up in the 60s, surrounded by flower power.

LOL….
Wow… ummm, no… I will forgive you this error, people always have said I seem mature for my age, so your mistake is perhaps justified.

Nope, I don’t remember the 60′s- and not because of the great drugs of the era… I just was never there.
Is this where you go all birther and demand to see my birth certificate? Will you take Podrock’s word for it? He knew me when I was a kid…

Second: The king is beholden to the barons, not the peasants. Once someone from either side is in office, there is very little the average american can do to counter his influence, save speak to our local land lords, and hope they act favorably on our behalf (money helps). You can’t really be accused of turning a blind eye to the actions of a man you no longer influence (and assuming we ever did is a stretch). Remember, the majority of the people, in both elections, voted AGAINST him – the College was how he scored his victory, and that’s a private interests group, as far as I’m concerned. Besides, the sad truth is that most citizens, red or blue, will “turn a blind eye” to government, as long as the trains run on time. How many Dems fought mass surveillance in the Obama years? How many Republicans pushed back against the War in Iraq? Truth is, we’re all guilty there.

Third: You have called for blood. Holy Hell, you have called for blood. You want hyperbole? Every other post you make, you’re calling for the “evil Trump Supporters” to suffer in new and creative ways. I already called you out for that here (https://www.habitablezone.com/2020/06/22/seek-out-people-that-disagree-with-you/), in my response. And that was just one thread. You have a problem.

Fourth: Show me those photos. “if you had been on at the time” is a common phrase I’m hearing from you, and it seems you’re using it as a base support for whatever you post.

Fifth: There are repentant Republicans. Repentance is difficult, when people like you are calling for blood. Noone wants to be marched to the stocks, and have their name dragged through the mud as their price for freedom. This isn’t Salem – leave them their name! Doing otherwise – doing what you do know – that’s the sign of smug, self-centered idiocy. Best case scenario, you’re the pot to their kettle.

Sixth: Most politicians have “zero” political experience. Their way in office is due to their business connections, not their political level. Trump and the reds are no exception. While the cursus honorum can and should be followed, it’s main route nowadays seems to be leveling up connections as fast as possible. The barons will support the most favorable, not the righteous.

Seventh: Don’t give me that “If I knew, I wouldn’t have” bullshit. Before his first election, Clinton had the Whitewater Controversy. Before his second, he had Chinagate, DOMA, and the NAFTA signatures. You knew. You knew, and you did the very thing you’re accusing Republicans of – “turning a blind eye”. Obama supported the PATRIOT act, and bills increasing his power, before both terms. You knew.

Eighth: Be VERY careful with those words.

I’ll forgive you, the same time I forgave the repentant Republicans: the moment they stopped spreading hate. It wasn’t all of them, but they’re not the representative of their whole party. They are NOT their brother’s keeper.

You’re voicing your “outrage” on the wrong forums to the wrong people. If it was the right forums, that would be democracy in action. Here, at best, it’s a circlejerk in a safe space; at it’s most likely, it’s an salty old nursing home reject raving to himself.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Eight years ago, I drifted from the Zone, due to real life – and it’s been a hell of a ride. When I orbited back, imagine my surprise to see that half my old friends were missing – chiefly, because both halves had decided to go to war with each other, and it was a war that frankly destroyed the Zone. Now, it’s just a few people camped out in the ruins, with one old man who won’t let the fires die. His target audience, and the targets of his ridicule don’t care, and more often than not can’t hear him. But I’m young, and I have good ears. And right now, I just wish that you’d shut up about this! I don’t want to hang around a community, much less live in a country where people act as you do – as I’ve outlined in my posts! I want my neighbors to be neighborly, I want my friends to be friendly. Even if we don’t agree, I want us to get along, and move along.

The sad part is, this is talk from your generation. I’m guessing you grew up in the 60s, surrounded by flower power. Ironically enough, I feel more in touch with that spirit right now, than you do. Quit the hate, and let love and peace have a chance.

It is telling that you find my outrage against those crimes to be a greater sin than the crimes themselves.

RL, don’t use your WWII vet great-uncle’s horrifying experiences as support for your own rants and demagogues, and a shield against anything to the contrary.

Yes, why learn from the lessons of history? The fact that a fascist demagogue way back then got his cult-like following to support and/or turn a blind eye to atrocities he committed in their name has NOOOOOO relevance now, right? The fact that ACTUAL NEO-NAZIS are being actively catered to by the GOP and especially by this president is just an unfortunate coincidence?

The camp guards, and your average Republican have nothing to do with each other – the latter wants order, just like the rest of us, while the former wants blood, and an excuse to spill it.

And there, in just your second sentence you wave good-bye to reality and start constructing a fairy tale NO ONE with a brain and a set of eyes could buy into…

Republicans want law and order? ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME? They excused every goddamn criminal act this president and his people committed before and after the election. On this very board they defended beating peaceful protesters at Trump rallies. The vast majority of the republican party willfully ignored or actively supported the crimes. Yes, there were a few exceptions- republicans that never supported Trump and fought hard to bring him down (Like the Lincoln Project)… ONLY ONE conservative that inhabited the zone falls into that category as far as I know- SDG- and I respect him for his moral consistency.

EVERY attack on ‘law and order’ committed by this president and his henchmen was accepted by the vast majority of the republican party. They NEVER wanted law and order, so sell your revisionist bullshit elsewhere, kiddo.

You know what they mean when the celebrate ‘law and order’? They really mean they want to see more black and brown people and lefties beaten down, or better yet killed.

Now, here you will accuse me of hyperbole, of wrongfully vilifying those that disagree with me- but their own actions and words prove me right. They had the couple that illegally threatened BLM protesters with guns speak at their convention. They celebrate the Kenosha shooter, Rittenhouse- the president even tried to excuse his actions. The violent neo-nazis that beat and killed people in defense of confederate monuments were very fine people according to the president the republicans. The armed militia that stormed state capitols to threaten and intimidate politicians over the covid restrictions were celebrated and supported by the president and I saw no movement from the party as a whole or remaining republicans to condemn it.

A large percentage of the republican party IS out for blood and IS looking for an excuse to spill it- Bannon calling for Fauci’s head on a pike, politicians talking about ‘second amendment remedies’ if the elections don’t go their way, the bubbas talking about the need for another civil war. Some of the conservative members of the zone fall into this latter category.

And those republicans that ARE NOT calling for blood? The VAST majority would happily turn a blind eye when their allies start killing and committing atrocities… they already have.

Do NOT call for blood yourself, unless you’re willing to look someone in the eyes while you take it – something you seem unwilling to do right now, or ever.

I have not called for blood- I have repeatedly said that violence is the tactic of the other side, not mine… if we engage in violence then the battle is lost. It would be highly unusual for me to come across a Trump supporter in my neighborhood. If they came up to me and started spouting their talking points you can be sure I would unload on them FAR more harshly than I do the Jehova’s witnesses, and con men that darken my door despite the no-soliciting sign. If they did so at work, I would make it my mission to see to it they paid the price for violating the law.

As for what I was doing during the Trump years, during his activities? I was volunteering to help those in need. I was voting against pro-Trump and pro-Fascist policies. I was PROTESTING. In PUBLIC. Not on a sheltered web forum like you are now, where you feel sheltered from any and all repercussions for your statements, and just raring for someone to disagree with you, so you can “flame” them down.

I was at marches and protests- I marched, I volunteered, and I donated (had you been on the zone at the time you would have seen some of the photos I posted from the DC marches), and any republican that wanted to join would have been welcomed by the protesters AND would be welcomed by me- I RESPECT those all too few republicans that took a stand against what their party had become, but as this election showed, they are a slim minority of the GOP.

Because religious or secular, liberal or conservative, one thing we can agree on is that you need to FORGIVE.

Forgiveness is not possible while the other party is unrepentant. Forgiveness Requires Repentance. Sure, I suppose YOU could ‘forgive’ someone actively calling for children to be stolen from their parents.. but SHOULD you? Of course not- when they have STOPPED doing that and served justice for their crimes, sure- forgive away to your heart’s content, whatever it takes for you to feel better about yourself.

But to forgive WHILE the crime is ongoing and the perpetrators are calling for greater atrocities? While that obviously gives you a smug sense of superiority, it really just makes you complicit.

Despite your twisted worldview, the majority of the Republicans who voted for Trump didn’t support his worldviews, or know exactly how badly he was going to fuck over the nation – he was the Republican pick, so they followed suit.

Trump had zero relevant experience- he started off his political ambitions with blatant racism. He openly called for abolishing constitutional protections, he repeatedly celebrated war crimes, he was obviously an authoritarian, a fascist. He was OBVIOUSLY unqualified. He was also OBVIOUSLY not a proponent of the ideals that republicans claimed to hold… they voted for him BECAUSE he was a racist, BECAUSE he was an authoritarian and – most importantly- it would cause ‘liberal tears’.

If Trump committed an atrocity, a crime against humanity that should shock the soul, the vast majority of republicans didn’t let themselves worry about it, they simply looked to see if it pissed off liberals- they would see liberals outraged and ‘crying liberal tears’ over children in camps, stolen from their parents- and come to the conclusion that the atrocity was perfectly justified.

What about you, RL? Can the same be said for you? if you voted Democrat, and supported Bill “Semen-Stain” Clinton, does that make you a tacit supporter of rapists and molesters?

If he campaigned on a pro-rape and molestation platform and then proceeded to rape and molest then yes- If I voted for that then that would make me a supporter of that evil and morally culpable in his actions.

As it is, I will happily support putting him in jail if he is found guilty of such things.

I was disgusted and furious with him over the Lewinski episode- like most democrats I know, we felt betrayed by that- and HAD he run on a pro-intern-blowjob platform, I would wager that he wouldn’t have done so well in the polls.

If you voted for Obama, does that mean you support privacy and human rights violations?

Again, had Obama campaigned on a platform of doing those things, and then actually did them, then YES – I would own that.

If you really want to follow through with the “cancel-culture” bullshit, I’m sure dirt can be dug up on your posts, and repeated endlessly whenever we see fit. You’ve already said a few choice things these past few months that I’m sure you’d love to be reminded of, over, and over, and over

Go ahead- BE MY GUEST.

You want to know what happened to civility, kiddo?
It was labeled as ‘Political Correctness’ and ‘Cancel Culture’ by conservatives and attacked and mocked.

Remember Milo Yiannopoulos? He was the one gay man conservatives LOVED- he would go to universities and spout racist bigoted things and the liberals would get sooo upset they would protest his events… Conservatives then would have a giggle and claim that liberals were homophobic- the conservatives LOVED it… they claimed the protests proved liberals were against freedom of speech… ‘Those libs are getting pwned by their own political correctness, heee-heee’

The more bigoted and outrageous Milo got, the more outraged the liberals got and the more gleeful the conservatives were…

Then Milo went on TV and said homosexual pedophile priests were not that bad… the collective “OH SHIT!!!” from conservatives registered on seismographs around the world, and they cancelled his ass so fast that they pretended they never heard of him.

They were happy with his bigotry, and would only accept his homosexuality because it could be used a a club against the libs…. they loved those liberal tears soo much that they ignored the fact he was a vile evil creature- and they were willing to shoot themselves in the foot just to upset the libs.
THAT is what happened to civility. They attacked it and declared war on it, redefined it to mean THEY can speak any racist hate speech they want and not be called on it.

So yeah,I will welcome any conservative zoner that was a never-Trumper – I only know of one.

If a former pro-Trump zoner came on and admitted they were wrong say 2 years ago I would perhaps respect that a bit… none did then, and none have since- in fact from what I have seen from them elsewhere, they mainly just doubled down on their stupidity- like the vast majority of republicans.

Forgiveness requires repentance, otherwise you are only giving them permission to continue the atrocities.

But for the record, I think there’s only one reason you’d bother to waste this much time camped out in Current Events, typing out endless posts that noone bothers to respond to, much less read:

Actually, I wrote a long post to Dan a while back explaining EXACTLY why I write my long posts… I guess you didn’t read it.

I will respond after work.