Comments on: It is hard to know where to begin with the tragedy in Israel… https://habitablezone.com/2023/10/08/it-is-hard-to-know-where-to-begin-with-the-tragedy-in-israel/ Fri, 03 Apr 2026 22:41:18 -0700 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: BuckGalaxy https://habitablezone.com/2023/10/08/it-is-hard-to-know-where-to-begin-with-the-tragedy-in-israel/#comment-52462 BuckGalaxy Wed, 11 Oct 2023 20:01:14 +0000 https://habitablezone.com/?p=101292#comment-52462 and makes it at the same time. It is a terrible tragedy that Palestinians elected Hamas to control the government of Gaza. and makes it at the same time.

It is a terrible tragedy that Palestinians elected Hamas to control the government of Gaza.

]]> By: RobVG https://habitablezone.com/2023/10/08/it-is-hard-to-know-where-to-begin-with-the-tragedy-in-israel/#comment-52461 RobVG Wed, 11 Oct 2023 17:46:25 +0000 https://habitablezone.com/?p=101292#comment-52461 Palestine is governed by Hamas and their ideology. Hamas was enthusiastically elected by the Palestinian people. Do you think they're easily separated? Palestine is governed by Hamas and their ideology. Hamas was enthusiastically elected by the Palestinian people. Do you think they’re easily separated?

]]> By: BuckGalaxy https://habitablezone.com/2023/10/08/it-is-hard-to-know-where-to-begin-with-the-tragedy-in-israel/#comment-52460 BuckGalaxy Wed, 11 Oct 2023 07:12:15 +0000 https://habitablezone.com/?p=101292#comment-52460 I misspoke initially and should have said Defacto state in that first comment. I know I said it numerous times later. I'll give my point one last try. Palestinians have been 100% independently governing a piece of land in palestine for almost two decades. Yes it is not recognized as a state by other nations, but for all intents and purposes it is a defacto state with its own independent government. That is my view and why that is not obvious to others is unclear to me. Is acknowledging something demonstrably true, that Gaza is independently governed by palestinians, somehow a dangerous idea that undermines some established political views about their status? Also, I'm not trying to be argumentative and I am not angry at you in any way. I agree largely with most of what you said. Especially about the dynamics of radicalization on both sides. They both have victim complexes, because they both have been victimized. Palestinians have been displaced, repressed and exploited certainly by the Israelis, but also by other arab nations and their own leaders. They are understandably reactionary. Israel is traumatized by 75 years of hostility from the Muslim world starting from day one of its modern existence. Given the bad neighborhood Israel lives in, the constant existential threat it faces, and the history of the jewish people, I fully understand why they are a bit suspicious and paranoid. I misspoke initially and should have said Defacto state in that first comment. I know I said it numerous times later.

I’ll give my point one last try. Palestinians have been 100% independently governing a piece of land in palestine for almost two decades. Yes it is not recognized as a state by other nations, but for all intents and purposes it is a defacto state with its own independent government. That is my view and why that is not obvious to others is unclear to me. Is acknowledging something demonstrably true, that Gaza is independently governed by palestinians, somehow a dangerous idea that undermines some established political views about their status?

Also, I’m not trying to be argumentative and I am not angry at you in any way. I agree largely with most of what you said. Especially about the dynamics of radicalization on both sides. They both have victim complexes, because they both have been victimized. Palestinians have been displaced, repressed and exploited certainly by the Israelis, but also by other arab nations and their own leaders. They are understandably reactionary. Israel is traumatized by 75 years of hostility from the Muslim world starting from day one of its modern existence. Given the bad neighborhood Israel lives in, the constant existential threat it faces, and the history of the jewish people, I fully understand why they are a bit suspicious and paranoid.

]]> By: RL https://habitablezone.com/2023/10/08/it-is-hard-to-know-where-to-begin-with-the-tragedy-in-israel/#comment-52459 RL Wed, 11 Oct 2023 05:49:32 +0000 https://habitablezone.com/?p=101292#comment-52459 That is simply not true, DeFacto or otherwise... I really do not see why you are so emotionally invested in this... That is simply not true, DeFacto or otherwise… I really do not see why you are so emotionally invested in this…

]]> By: BuckGalaxy https://habitablezone.com/2023/10/08/it-is-hard-to-know-where-to-begin-with-the-tragedy-in-israel/#comment-52458 BuckGalaxy Wed, 11 Oct 2023 05:44:37 +0000 https://habitablezone.com/?p=101292#comment-52458 I said Gaza is a DEFACTO sovereign state numerous times. Go read it again. How you missed that is beyond me. Iran has heavy influence in Gaza, perhaps you could even say they are Gaza's suzerain. I wouldn't go that far but I'll allow it. My point was Iran doesn't administer the public sector in Gaza. That's all. Palestinians run the government and all its functions in Gaza. Thus a defacto state. My point about Egypt's border was based on the quote from you blaming everything bad happening in Gaza on Israel. Egypt should share the blame. I thought I was pretty clear on that as well. I said Gaza is a DEFACTO sovereign state numerous times. Go read it again. How you missed that is beyond me.

Iran has heavy influence in Gaza, perhaps you could even say they are Gaza’s suzerain. I wouldn’t go that far but I’ll allow it. My point was Iran doesn’t administer the public sector in Gaza. That’s all. Palestinians run the government and all its functions in Gaza. Thus a defacto state.

My point about Egypt’s border was based on the quote from you blaming everything bad happening in Gaza on Israel. Egypt should share the blame. I thought I was pretty clear on that as well.

]]> By: RL https://habitablezone.com/2023/10/08/it-is-hard-to-know-where-to-begin-with-the-tragedy-in-israel/#comment-52457 RL Wed, 11 Oct 2023 05:20:24 +0000 https://habitablezone.com/?p=101292#comment-52457 90% of the time you are pretty reasonable, but every once in a while you seem to become irrationally emotionally invested in a demonstrably wrong position... Hamas runs Gaza, the everyday people in Gaza get no say over what is done in their names. Hamas is a puppet of Iran ... Gaza is operated as a puppet of Iran. Yes, Egypt also closes its border to Gaza, but it is Israel that periodically goes in and kills thousands when they feel Gaza has stepped out of line. <blockquote>Hamas kidnaps and kills three Israeli teens in the West Bank, igniting the Gaza War, in which rocket attacks and airstrikes kill 2,251 Palestinians and 73 Israelis. Israel launches a major military campaign against Hamas in Gaza after increased rocket fire from militants. The fighting ends on Jan. 18, 2009, with 1,440 Palestinians and 13 Israelis killed.</blockquote> How does the fact that Egypt also closes its border with Gaza have ANY bearing on the fact that it is ludicrous to call Gaza an independent state? <blockquote>Technically Gaza is not a sovereign state and is not recognized by other nations as such.</blockquote> Ah, so I am technically correct and the rest of the international community agrees with me... so WHY are you arguing? <img src="https://media2.giphy.com/media/1hMk0bfsSrG32Nhd5K/giphy.gif" alt="" /> The people of Gaza have no control over what is done in their name. I am in no way justifying these acts of barbarism- Hamas has become akin to ISIS and needs to be crushed, and its membership should be killed. I am just saying that it is delusional and, quite frankly, bizarre to say Gaza is an independent state when it is a puppet and pawn of states hostile to Israel, and in many ways Israel has a noose around Gaza's neck that it can and does tighten when Israel feels the need to do so... The conditions in Gaza are tailor made to encourage radicalization- that does not excuse the monsters that inevitably arise, but it does suggest that maybe it would be better to address those conditions rather than continue doing the same thing over and over again. Because you and I both know that this coming military operation - no matter how effective it is, no matter how justified- will only lead to MORE radicalization in the coming decade. 90% of the time you are pretty reasonable, but every once in a while you seem to become irrationally emotionally invested in a demonstrably wrong position…

Hamas runs Gaza, the everyday people in Gaza get no say over what is done in their names. Hamas is a puppet of Iran … Gaza is operated as a puppet of Iran. Yes, Egypt also closes its border to Gaza, but it is Israel that periodically goes in and kills thousands when they feel Gaza has stepped out of line.

Hamas kidnaps and kills three Israeli teens in the West Bank, igniting the Gaza War, in which rocket attacks and airstrikes kill 2,251 Palestinians and 73 Israelis.

Israel launches a major military campaign against Hamas in Gaza after increased rocket fire from militants. The fighting ends on Jan. 18, 2009, with 1,440 Palestinians and 13 Israelis killed.

How does the fact that Egypt also closes its border with Gaza have ANY bearing on the fact that it is ludicrous to call Gaza an independent state?

Technically Gaza is not a sovereign state and is not recognized by other nations as such.

Ah, so I am technically correct and the rest of the international community agrees with me… so WHY are you arguing?

The people of Gaza have no control over what is done in their name.

I am in no way justifying these acts of barbarism- Hamas has become akin to ISIS and needs to be crushed, and its membership should be killed. I am just saying that it is delusional and, quite frankly, bizarre to say Gaza is an independent state when it is a puppet and pawn of states hostile to Israel, and in many ways Israel has a noose around Gaza’s neck that it can and does tighten when Israel feels the need to do so…

The conditions in Gaza are tailor made to encourage radicalization- that does not excuse the monsters that inevitably arise, but it does suggest that maybe it would be better to address those conditions rather than continue doing the same thing over and over again.

Because you and I both know that this coming military operation – no matter how effective it is, no matter how justified- will only lead to MORE radicalization in the coming decade.

]]> By: BuckGalaxy https://habitablezone.com/2023/10/08/it-is-hard-to-know-where-to-begin-with-the-tragedy-in-israel/#comment-52455 BuckGalaxy Tue, 10 Oct 2023 20:50:33 +0000 https://habitablezone.com/?p=101292#comment-52455 When the CIA overthrew the government in Iran and installed the Shah for decades, that didn't make Iran a state of the United States. When we occupied and actually administered Japan and West Germany after WW2, even then those nations were not part of the United States. Perhaps Iran's influence was behind pushing the Hamas attack, but that is a far cry from running the entire public sector of Gaza. When the CIA overthrew the government in Iran and installed the Shah for decades, that didn’t make Iran a state of the United States. When we occupied and actually administered Japan and West Germany after WW2, even then those nations were not part of the United States.

Perhaps Iran’s influence was behind pushing the Hamas attack, but that is a far cry from running the entire public sector of Gaza.

]]> By: BuckGalaxy https://habitablezone.com/2023/10/08/it-is-hard-to-know-where-to-begin-with-the-tragedy-in-israel/#comment-52454 BuckGalaxy Tue, 10 Oct 2023 20:40:08 +0000 https://habitablezone.com/?p=101292#comment-52454 As I stated to RL, Iran has influence but does not ADMINISTER Gaza. This is demonstrably factual. Hamas runs the entire public sector in Gaza, passes and enforces laws, does EVERYTHING that governments around the world do. For someone to pretend it is not a self ruling entity, a defacto state, is self-delusional - for what purpose I can only surmise. Heavy influence does not make Gaza a province of Iran. I would argue Iran has more influence with Hezbollah since that organization is Shiite while Hamas is Sunni. And yes Hamas is a brutal dictatorship and their Parliament is window dressing, as is the case with so many other dictatorships around the world. There are plenty of nations where the people have no voice and disappear if they speak out against the regime. Those places are still nations regardless of their government. As I stated to RL, Iran has influence but does not ADMINISTER Gaza. This is demonstrably factual. Hamas runs the entire public sector in Gaza, passes and enforces laws, does EVERYTHING that governments around the world do. For someone to pretend it is not a self ruling entity, a defacto state, is self-delusional – for what purpose I can only surmise.

Heavy influence does not make Gaza a province of Iran. I would argue Iran has more influence with Hezbollah since that organization is Shiite while Hamas is Sunni.

And yes Hamas is a brutal dictatorship and their Parliament is window dressing, as is the case with so many other dictatorships around the world. There are plenty of nations where the people have no voice and disappear if they speak out against the regime. Those places are still nations regardless of their government.

]]> By: ER https://habitablezone.com/2023/10/08/it-is-hard-to-know-where-to-begin-with-the-tragedy-in-israel/#comment-52453 ER Tue, 10 Oct 2023 20:23:54 +0000 https://habitablezone.com/?p=101292#comment-52453 Hamal calls the shots, and Hezbollah. This is all about them. Anybody in Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon who stands up to them disappears. And Hamas and Hezbollah answer only to Iran. There is no <em>de facto</em> Palestinian state. The whole show is run by the Ayatollahs. Hamal calls the shots, and Hezbollah. This is all about them.
Anybody in Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon who stands up to them disappears. And Hamas and Hezbollah answer only to Iran.

There is no de facto Palestinian state. The whole show is run by the Ayatollahs.

]]> By: BuckGalaxy https://habitablezone.com/2023/10/08/it-is-hard-to-know-where-to-begin-with-the-tragedy-in-israel/#comment-52451 BuckGalaxy Tue, 10 Oct 2023 18:09:53 +0000 https://habitablezone.com/?p=101292#comment-52451 Yes the very wealthy Arab world has let the Palestinians suffer for their own political reasons. The Israelis have callously annexed land, built settlements on it, and militarily occupied the West Bank for almost 60 years. They have NOT militarily occupied Gaza for almost 20 years. They have invaded Gaza a few times during open warfare. The reverse can now be said. A broader war could occur but it won't be WW3. Russia is too militarily weak and involved in Ukraine. China doesn't give shit. Iran is the concern but that would not be a world war. I think saying the hard right jewish religious sects want palestinians "exterminated" if they protest is a bit far. Let's say they'd be happy to evict them all to Jordan. Who can blame the palestinians for their desperation? I can. The palestinians have had at least a half dozen real opportunities in the last 80 years to create a palestinian state. They have rejected it for violence every single time. Weak leadership. Lack of vision. Violent hatred. Whatever you want to call it. There is a very spot on saying: Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. That statehood ship has sailed for another generation at least. No way in hell Israel will (or should) allow ANOTHER state like Gaza to exist on the West Bank. Yes the very wealthy Arab world has let the Palestinians suffer for their own political reasons. The Israelis have callously annexed land, built settlements on it, and militarily occupied the West Bank for almost 60 years. They have NOT militarily occupied Gaza for almost 20 years. They have invaded Gaza a few times during open warfare. The reverse can now be said. A broader war could occur but it won’t be WW3. Russia is too militarily weak and involved in Ukraine. China doesn’t give shit. Iran is the concern but that would not be a world war.

I think saying the hard right jewish religious sects want palestinians “exterminated” if they protest is a bit far. Let’s say they’d be happy to evict them all to Jordan. Who can blame the palestinians for their desperation? I can. The palestinians have had at least a half dozen real opportunities in the last 80 years to create a palestinian state. They have rejected it for violence every single time. Weak leadership. Lack of vision. Violent hatred. Whatever you want to call it. There is a very spot on saying: Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. That statehood ship has sailed for another generation at least. No way in hell Israel will (or should) allow ANOTHER state like Gaza to exist on the West Bank.

]]>