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	<title>Comments on: The BS machine in full force</title>
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		<title>By: BuckGalaxy</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2024/08/16/the-bs-machine-in-full-force/#comment-53426</link>
		<dc:creator>BuckGalaxy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Aug 2024 20:17:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=104252#comment-53426</guid>
		<description>What I described above assumes a competitive free market.  If a market is not competitive then these kinds of high prices will persist.  Monopolies and cartels, while unstable in the long run, can milk the consummers for a very long time.  And certainly there is a concentration of control in the food industry where about four massive companies control 85% of the market. I agree with you on that point completely.  I just think it&#039;s important to differenciate what S&amp;D looks like in a competitive marketplace vs one that allows one or a few big players to collaborate on price gouging.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I described above assumes a competitive free market.  If a market is not competitive then these kinds of high prices will persist.  Monopolies and cartels, while unstable in the long run, can milk the consummers for a very long time.  And certainly there is a concentration of control in the food industry where about four massive companies control 85% of the market. I agree with you on that point completely.  I just think it&#8217;s important to differenciate what S&amp;D looks like in a competitive marketplace vs one that allows one or a few big players to collaborate on price gouging.</p>
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		<title>By: BuckGalaxy</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2024/08/16/the-bs-machine-in-full-force/#comment-53424</link>
		<dc:creator>BuckGalaxy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Aug 2024 16:22:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=104252#comment-53424</guid>
		<description>Price gouging is a thing but it only works during shortages, and on products that have inelastic demand (things people must have, like food staples).  Once the shortage is over market pressures build to push prices and quantities back to equlibrium. 

In other words, in a competitive market they can&#039;t maintain those high prices forever.  If they do they make less money.  Consumers will start buying cheaper generic products and the companies that fill that niche will gain market share.  Other companies will start to drop their prices to gain market share back and restore their profit margins.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Price gouging is a thing but it only works during shortages, and on products that have inelastic demand (things people must have, like food staples).  Once the shortage is over market pressures build to push prices and quantities back to equlibrium. </p>
<p>In other words, in a competitive market they can&#8217;t maintain those high prices forever.  If they do they make less money.  Consumers will start buying cheaper generic products and the companies that fill that niche will gain market share.  Other companies will start to drop their prices to gain market share back and restore their profit margins.</p>
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		<title>By: BuckGalaxy</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2024/08/16/the-bs-machine-in-full-force/#comment-53423</link>
		<dc:creator>BuckGalaxy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Aug 2024 16:13:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=104252#comment-53423</guid>
		<description>Maybe someday, my good buddy, you will wrap your head around the concept that S&amp;D is a VERY BIG structure that includes all the things you just mentioned within it.   If you were talking about galaxies and quarks and black holes and dark matter, S&amp;D is like the gravity that exists in the entire universe.  It sounds like you are understanding many of the pieces of the puzzle, you just can&#039;t see the entire picture quite yet. 

Production costs go up (Supply), effecting the prices, which will then effect Demand and thus quantities.  Say there&#039;s a shortage of rubber (Supply), the price of products that use rubber goes up.  Demand for those rubber products goes down as a result. (There is of course elasticity and inelasticity of Demand, but that&#039;s still Demand.)  

Marketing convinces consumers they have to have some great product. Demand. Do you get what I&#039;m saying?  Marketing, and every other thing in the universe that effects a decision to buy something, is simply part of Demand.  Shrinking a bag of chips will have some effect on Demand.  Supply and Demand are not pieces of a puzzle, they are the entire puzzle.  Everything else is a piece of that puzzle.  There is nothing magical about it, nothing good or evil about, nothing innately moral or immoral about it.  It just IS, like gravity.  

Btw, I know I passed up my tapatio doritos when I first noticed the slightly smaller size, and I still only buy them when they are on sale, which is as often as not. Demand. In a competitive market some companies will keep their bag sizes the same because they want market share.  But brand loyalty is a thing too though, and I just don&#039;t fucking like flaming hot Lays chips.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe someday, my good buddy, you will wrap your head around the concept that S&amp;D is a VERY BIG structure that includes all the things you just mentioned within it.   If you were talking about galaxies and quarks and black holes and dark matter, S&amp;D is like the gravity that exists in the entire universe.  It sounds like you are understanding many of the pieces of the puzzle, you just can&#8217;t see the entire picture quite yet. </p>
<p>Production costs go up (Supply), effecting the prices, which will then effect Demand and thus quantities.  Say there&#8217;s a shortage of rubber (Supply), the price of products that use rubber goes up.  Demand for those rubber products goes down as a result. (There is of course elasticity and inelasticity of Demand, but that&#8217;s still Demand.)  </p>
<p>Marketing convinces consumers they have to have some great product. Demand. Do you get what I&#8217;m saying?  Marketing, and every other thing in the universe that effects a decision to buy something, is simply part of Demand.  Shrinking a bag of chips will have some effect on Demand.  Supply and Demand are not pieces of a puzzle, they are the entire puzzle.  Everything else is a piece of that puzzle.  There is nothing magical about it, nothing good or evil about, nothing innately moral or immoral about it.  It just IS, like gravity.  </p>
<p>Btw, I know I passed up my tapatio doritos when I first noticed the slightly smaller size, and I still only buy them when they are on sale, which is as often as not. Demand. In a competitive market some companies will keep their bag sizes the same because they want market share.  But brand loyalty is a thing too though, and I just don&#8217;t fucking like flaming hot Lays chips.</p>
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		<title>By: podrock</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2024/08/16/the-bs-machine-in-full-force/#comment-53422</link>
		<dc:creator>podrock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Aug 2024 15:40:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=104252#comment-53422</guid>
		<description>During the pandemic related supply shortages, prices went up, but so did corporate profits. So, they took advantage of the situation to convince consumers that those increases were justified. Part of their price targeting was based on consumer fear. Sure, demand was high and supply low; but they exaggerated the hell out of it. This was not some invisible hand - these were choices made in boardrooms.

The economic force in this case is enhancing shareholder value, an often overlooked aspect of the equation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>During the pandemic related supply shortages, prices went up, but so did corporate profits. So, they took advantage of the situation to convince consumers that those increases were justified. Part of their price targeting was based on consumer fear. Sure, demand was high and supply low; but they exaggerated the hell out of it. This was not some invisible hand &#8211; these were choices made in boardrooms.</p>
<p>The economic force in this case is enhancing shareholder value, an often overlooked aspect of the equation.</p>
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		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2024/08/16/the-bs-machine-in-full-force/#comment-53420</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Aug 2024 12:22:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=104252#comment-53420</guid>
		<description>Those of us who haven&#039;t been sold on the party line, or who don&#039;t need it to justify our own life choices or ideological commitments, don&#039;t have any trouble at at all seeing through the whole vulgar farce.

Companies can minutely control prices, quantities, profits, sales, supply and demand, to find the sweet spot.  They also have the ability to monitor markets and feedback that information to their production and distributing and pricing organs. The buyer doesn&#039;t have access to all those resources, and is limited in his ability to communicate with other consumers and coordinate his purchasing with his fellow victims.  He doesn&#039;t have a bloody chance.

For example, if production costs go up and a rise in prices threatens to downgrade profits because of reduced demand, the producer has the option of altering the packaging of a product so the cost per unit remains the same but the cost per pound goes up.  And if you spend much time at the supermarket, you&#039;ll see that &quot;competing&quot; companies do this simultaneously.  They may not be colluding to fix prices, but the result is just the same.  They have all been making the same calculation, so they wind up acting together.  So the price of a loaf of bread remains the same, but the loaves are smaller.  And all the brands are doing it.  The average consumer may not realize this is happening, and he certainly can&#039;t communicate with his fellows even if he does,  Meanwhile, the cost of retooling the factory to make smaller loaves (that have to be purchased more often) is passed on to the consumer.  

The same processes occur when companies purchase commodities from one another, but they have procurement departments and research divisions and other resources to scour markets for good prices, and they purchase in bulk and sign long term contracts so they are able to influence sellers more effectively to lower their prices.  When a steel foundry purchases coke then the Law of Supply and Demand is much more likely to be operating effectively due to something akin to economies of scale.  The price of bread may be going up, but the farmer gets less and less for his grain every day. He gets more productive but he is still going into debt. Where is all that money going?  But in consumer sales, the consumer gets screwed.  That&#039;s why the American economy is all about marketing to consumers than it is about making things.  Its easier to make a profit.

Of course, the producers can honestly tell themselves they are not manipulating or exploiting or even cheating their customers, they are just &lt;em&gt;&quot;responding automatically to the laws of economics&quot;&lt;/em&gt;.  Sheeeiiit.

And the consumers can always be persuaded the ripoff is all Biden&#039;s and his commie friends&#039; fault. 

Its all Marketing 101.  You can actually get a PhD in this. At hundreds of universities all over the country.  Talk about marketing...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Those of us who haven&#8217;t been sold on the party line, or who don&#8217;t need it to justify our own life choices or ideological commitments, don&#8217;t have any trouble at at all seeing through the whole vulgar farce.</p>
<p>Companies can minutely control prices, quantities, profits, sales, supply and demand, to find the sweet spot.  They also have the ability to monitor markets and feedback that information to their production and distributing and pricing organs. The buyer doesn&#8217;t have access to all those resources, and is limited in his ability to communicate with other consumers and coordinate his purchasing with his fellow victims.  He doesn&#8217;t have a bloody chance.</p>
<p>For example, if production costs go up and a rise in prices threatens to downgrade profits because of reduced demand, the producer has the option of altering the packaging of a product so the cost per unit remains the same but the cost per pound goes up.  And if you spend much time at the supermarket, you&#8217;ll see that &#8220;competing&#8221; companies do this simultaneously.  They may not be colluding to fix prices, but the result is just the same.  They have all been making the same calculation, so they wind up acting together.  So the price of a loaf of bread remains the same, but the loaves are smaller.  And all the brands are doing it.  The average consumer may not realize this is happening, and he certainly can&#8217;t communicate with his fellows even if he does,  Meanwhile, the cost of retooling the factory to make smaller loaves (that have to be purchased more often) is passed on to the consumer.  </p>
<p>The same processes occur when companies purchase commodities from one another, but they have procurement departments and research divisions and other resources to scour markets for good prices, and they purchase in bulk and sign long term contracts so they are able to influence sellers more effectively to lower their prices.  When a steel foundry purchases coke then the Law of Supply and Demand is much more likely to be operating effectively due to something akin to economies of scale.  The price of bread may be going up, but the farmer gets less and less for his grain every day. He gets more productive but he is still going into debt. Where is all that money going?  But in consumer sales, the consumer gets screwed.  That&#8217;s why the American economy is all about marketing to consumers than it is about making things.  Its easier to make a profit.</p>
<p>Of course, the producers can honestly tell themselves they are not manipulating or exploiting or even cheating their customers, they are just <em>&#8220;responding automatically to the laws of economics&#8221;</em>.  Sheeeiiit.</p>
<p>And the consumers can always be persuaded the ripoff is all Biden&#8217;s and his commie friends&#8217; fault. </p>
<p>Its all Marketing 101.  You can actually get a PhD in this. At hundreds of universities all over the country.  Talk about marketing&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: BuckGalaxy</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2024/08/16/the-bs-machine-in-full-force/#comment-53418</link>
		<dc:creator>BuckGalaxy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Aug 2024 06:56:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=104252#comment-53418</guid>
		<description>That is the way it works: Finding that point where prices, quantities, supply and demand maximize profits.  Yes those companies overshot and by pulling back the price, they make higher profits because they sell nore.  

This is intuitive.  If the price of a loaf of bread were $1000 almost no one would buy bread and profits would be nothing.  If the price were a penny they would be selling out every day but the profits would still be next to nothing.  Finding that sweet spot where profits are maximized is what the concept of S&amp;D is all about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is the way it works: Finding that point where prices, quantities, supply and demand maximize profits.  Yes those companies overshot and by pulling back the price, they make higher profits because they sell nore.  </p>
<p>This is intuitive.  If the price of a loaf of bread were $1000 almost no one would buy bread and profits would be nothing.  If the price were a penny they would be selling out every day but the profits would still be next to nothing.  Finding that sweet spot where profits are maximized is what the concept of S&amp;D is all about.</p>
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		<title>By: podrock</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2024/08/16/the-bs-machine-in-full-force/#comment-53417</link>
		<dc:creator>podrock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Aug 2024 03:35:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=104252#comment-53417</guid>
		<description>My observation is that much of the recent inflation in consumer cost is the exploration of that discovery point. How much will they pay, how much profit can we make? 

Note that several big retailers have announced price cutting campaigns because they overshot, and now have to pull back, and make themselves look altruistic while doing it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My observation is that much of the recent inflation in consumer cost is the exploration of that discovery point. How much will they pay, how much profit can we make? </p>
<p>Note that several big retailers have announced price cutting campaigns because they overshot, and now have to pull back, and make themselves look altruistic while doing it.</p>
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		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2024/08/16/the-bs-machine-in-full-force/#comment-53416</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Aug 2024 23:05:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=104252#comment-53416</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m so glad I was able to disappoint you.

&lt;img src=&quot;https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRGA70jSrjDBu_ZZEL7aN7y9Cl_aqTf7RLeRg&amp;s&quot; alt=&quot;&quot; /&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m so glad I was able to disappoint you.</p>
<p><img src="https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRGA70jSrjDBu_ZZEL7aN7y9Cl_aqTf7RLeRg&#038;s" alt="" /></p>
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		<title>By: BuckGalaxy</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2024/08/16/the-bs-machine-in-full-force/#comment-53415</link>
		<dc:creator>BuckGalaxy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Aug 2024 21:29:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=104252#comment-53415</guid>
		<description>...You would take my post and warp it into your sometimes ill-conceived ideology.  Bro, chill.

Let&#039;s just stick to Trump and his team making up bullshit about Kamala&#039;s announced policy.  Price controls that Trump rails about actually already exist in the form of Farm Bills where subsidies exist to stabilize food prices, just not at the end of the supply chain on the market shelves.  Kamala&#039;s idea of fines for price gouging companies falls into the category of regulatory oversight not price controls.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;You would take my post and warp it into your sometimes ill-conceived ideology.  Bro, chill.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s just stick to Trump and his team making up bullshit about Kamala&#8217;s announced policy.  Price controls that Trump rails about actually already exist in the form of Farm Bills where subsidies exist to stabilize food prices, just not at the end of the supply chain on the market shelves.  Kamala&#8217;s idea of fines for price gouging companies falls into the category of regulatory oversight not price controls.</p>
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		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://habitablezone.com/2024/08/16/the-bs-machine-in-full-force/#comment-53414</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Aug 2024 20:40:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=104252#comment-53414</guid>
		<description>Terms like “wage and price controls” or “socialized medicine” or “government regulation” are invented by the business community and their government allies to immediately attack any policy the ownership class finds inconvenient as “socialism”. They simply do not want any part of anything that might hurt their profit or their freedom of action. Any doubt of this should be quickly dispersed by a quick review of the oil, pharma, tobacco, pesticide or any other big business lobby that has ever existed. These people simply do not give a shit about the rest of us.  If you prefer your examples historical, read up on the railroad industry in the 19th century.  They even coined a term to justify their monopolies: &quot;destructive competition&quot;.

Does this mean we should let Big Government do whatever the hell it wants? Of course not. All interference and regulation in public or economic affairs must be carefully considered and gradually implemented. Even then, sometimes the best-meaning bureaucrats (even after meticulous study) make grievous mistakes, or conditions change, or bad people exploit the situation. That’s why we have governments and elections and democracy and a free press, so that the regulatory process itself can be regulated. And even then sometimes we err or villains take over.

But when people, or organizations, have a vested financial interest in any policy being carried out in a certain way, they simply cannot be trusted to act in the public interest. Its not that they are evil people (although there certainly is no shortage of THEM around) its just that they have an &lt;em&gt;incentive&lt;/em&gt; to be evil. Every decision point in their procedure and process will always have a thumb on one side of the scale. All those “free market mechanisms”, like competition and the Law of Supply and Fucking Demand, which are supposed to automatically trend towards fairness and efficiency tend to be forgotten when it gives someone with power a little advantage. The “invisible hand” too often is totally non-existent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Terms like “wage and price controls” or “socialized medicine” or “government regulation” are invented by the business community and their government allies to immediately attack any policy the ownership class finds inconvenient as “socialism”. They simply do not want any part of anything that might hurt their profit or their freedom of action. Any doubt of this should be quickly dispersed by a quick review of the oil, pharma, tobacco, pesticide or any other big business lobby that has ever existed. These people simply do not give a shit about the rest of us.  If you prefer your examples historical, read up on the railroad industry in the 19th century.  They even coined a term to justify their monopolies: &#8220;destructive competition&#8221;.</p>
<p>Does this mean we should let Big Government do whatever the hell it wants? Of course not. All interference and regulation in public or economic affairs must be carefully considered and gradually implemented. Even then, sometimes the best-meaning bureaucrats (even after meticulous study) make grievous mistakes, or conditions change, or bad people exploit the situation. That’s why we have governments and elections and democracy and a free press, so that the regulatory process itself can be regulated. And even then sometimes we err or villains take over.</p>
<p>But when people, or organizations, have a vested financial interest in any policy being carried out in a certain way, they simply cannot be trusted to act in the public interest. Its not that they are evil people (although there certainly is no shortage of THEM around) its just that they have an <em>incentive</em> to be evil. Every decision point in their procedure and process will always have a thumb on one side of the scale. All those “free market mechanisms”, like competition and the Law of Supply and Fucking Demand, which are supposed to automatically trend towards fairness and efficiency tend to be forgotten when it gives someone with power a little advantage. The “invisible hand” too often is totally non-existent.</p>
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